Which bathroom should I use?

[UTEopia]

The US Justice Department has told public schools and colleges that they must protect transgender students from discrimination and that they cannot prevent transgender students from using the bathroom of the gender they identify with as opposed to the gender indicated on their birth certificate as mandated by recently enacted laws in North Carolina and elsewhere.

See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...f=queer-voices

I must admit that I am not sure exactly how I feel about any of this. I don't remember ever hearing of an issue related to a transgender person doing anything inappropriate while in a public restroom. I guess I believe that there is greater risk of bullying, etc towards the transgender person than there is inappropriate behavior by a transgender person, but I don't know.

If Bruce is now Caitlin and presents as a woman, which bathroom is the appropriate one to use when at the airport? I'm guessing Caitlin would feel most comfortable in the women's bathroom. If Caitlin walks into a public bathroom and my wife or adult daughters are in there, am I concerned? I don't think so. What if my ten year old granddaughter is in there by herself? I don't think I really have anything to be concerned about, but if I am honest with myself, I am. I don't know any transgender people. Maybe if I did, I would not have these concerns. I have friends who are gay and I am fine with gay marriage.

Is the legislation in NC really responding to a legitimate issue?
Is it fear mongering?
Is it simple hate?

[LA Ute]

I don't think the fear is of transgender people generally, but of unintended consequences involving others people. The interviews on this video are pretty compelling, in my opinion:

[UTEopia]

I don't think the fear is of transgender people generally, but of unintended consequences involving others. This video is pretty compelling, in my opinion:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tg-MAM...ature=youtu.be

"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

Like I said, I'm conflicted on this issue. I believe there are legitimate concerns on both sides. I'm not sure that requiring a transgender person to use the bathroom of the gender identified on the birth certificate protects against the unintended victims concerns expressed in the video. If a predator wants to gain access to a women's public locker room or bathroom all he need do is present as a female.

[Diehard Ute]

Like I said, I'm conflicted on this issue. I believe there are legitimate concerns on both sides. I'm not sure that requiring a transgender person to use the bathroom of the gender identified on the birth certificate protects against the unintended victims concerns expressed in the video. If a predator wants to gain access to a women's public locker room or bathroom all he need do is present as a female.

The first interview in the video showed exactly why this whole debate is a bit ludicrous.

We know who the predators of the world are. And oddly enough we as a society ignore them.

See scandals in scouting, churches, sports etc etc etc.

I'd venture we've had far more children molested by men in positions of trust, presenting as a bland heterosexual male, than we ever have had with a transgender person

[Rocker Ute]

Protection of children is a red herring a bit. Pedophiles are of all walks of life, including congressmen, coaches, judges, doctors and anyone else. And if you are targeting children there are easier places than a public bathroom. If you are concerned about your child go in there with them or take them in with you. Or if neither of those work make sure there are others going in and out.

There is a solution though and it isn't for just transgender and you are seeing it more frequently and that is having private bathrooms.

I personally love these when my daughter's needed to go (when they still needed help). There are a variety of reason to have these and make them handicap accessible. The downside is you have to wait if it is in use.

Of course there are also costs associated too.

If you are concerned, if there is someone who is in the bathroom that makes you uncomfortable just go back out until they leave. It is a time honored tradition kind of like not using the urinal right next to another guy that has worked since running water.

And with 3 out of 100,000 people identifying as transgender I'm pretty sure most people won't run into this issue, and if they do won't know that they are.


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[Diehard Ute]

Protection of children is a red herring a bit. Pedophiles are of all walks of life, including congressmen, coaches, judges, doctors and anyone else. And if you are targeting children there are easier places than a public bathroom. If you are concerned about your child go in there with them or take them in with you. Or if neither of those work make sure there are others going in and out.

There is a solution though and it isn't for just transgender and you are seeing it more frequently and that is having private bathrooms.

I personally love these when my daughter's needed to go (when they still needed help). There are a variety of reason to have these and make them handicap accessible. The downside is you have to wait if it is in use.

Of course there are also costs associated too.

If you are concerned, if there is someone who is in the bathroom that makes you uncomfortable just go back out until they leave. It is a time honored tradition kind of like not using the urinal right next to another guy that has worked since running water.

And with 3 out of 100,000 people identifying as transgender I'm pretty sure most people won't run into this issue, and if they do won't know that they are.


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Exactly.

The vast majority of transgender people who live their life fully, or even part time, as who they identify as want NO attention for it.

I think perhaps many people don't know a truly transgender person and thus imagine a drag queen as being representative of what a transgender person is.

People who are transgender, or even those who enjoy cross dressing or other similar things are usually quite fearful of being exposed. Some for actual physical safety concerns, many for the stigma and judgement they're likely to face.

[LA Ute]

I agree that this is a ludicrous debate. Granting the legal right to use a rest room to transgender people is a solution in search of a problem. I sure they've been using them for a long time without even being noticed. I Iike Rocker's idea of private or unisex bathrooms.

The videos are about triggering. For women who've been abused and still suffer from the aftereffects, having a biological male in a restroom is a triggering event.

You guys didn't mention locker rooms. With a letter going out to all public schools in the USA from the federal Department of Justice, threatening legal action if the schools don't grant access (an extraordinary move, you've got to admit), the schools are in a tough spot. My wife's been a board member of a very large charter high school in L.A., and she's wondering how the school will approach this. When some knucklehead teenage boy walls into a girls' locker room after swim practice (this has already happened elsewhere), and claims he is transgender, how do we respond to the parents' and girls' complaints that their privacy has been violated? Do we make the boy submit to psychological testing to prove his transgender status? Will there be an appeal of that decision?

It's all amazingly stupid IMO.

EDIT: I like this writer's take on the subject:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/a...r-transgender/

If we're going to do something like this, fine, but let's make it a decision that results from the political/judicial process, not from a Justice Department letter to all the public schools.

[sancho]

We know who the predators of the world are.

I don't know what you mean or what you are proposing.

Are there statistics on those who are arrested for molestation, statutory, etc? I would expect all types of people would be represented. I have no idea if any groups would be overrepresented. I only personally know two people who have been arrested for these things. Both are gay, neither is transgender. Extremely limited sample size.

[Diehard Ute]

I don't know what you mean or what you are proposing.

Are there statistics on those who are arrested for molestation, statutory, etc? I would expect all types of people would be represented. I have no idea if any groups would be overrepresented. I only personally know two people who have been arrested for these things. Both are gay, neither is transgender. Extremely limited sample size.

Yes. All of that stuff is tracked, it takes work to compile it, but there are definite profiles of all types of crimes.

We even know that actual rapists who are caught commit several rapes on average before they're caught (same for most who drive drunk)

[NorthwestUteFan]

A close friend has a trans son who just turned 18.

He just wants to be able to walk into a stall in the men's bathroom and do his business, without showing his birth certificate or having some creepy legislator worry about what he has (or doesn't have) in his pants.

[Two Utes]

A close friend has a trans son who just turned 18.

He just wants to be able to walk into a stall in the men's bathroom and do his business, without showing his birth certificate or having some creepy legislator worry about what he has (or doesn't have) in his pants.

So you need to genuinely help me understand this.

Before this all became an issue, anyone with a penis would go to the men's bathroom and anyone with a vagina would go to the girls bathroom (I realize we are setting aside the very few folks who have both, I juts don't want this to go on a tangent).

There were some folks who felt uncomfortable with this approach and want to be in a different bathroom because mentally they feel more like the opposite sex

Now, we are saying these folks shouldn't have to ever feel uncomfortable and should be able to go into the bathroom where mentally they feel best even if that makes others in the bathroom uncomfortable.

So we are basically shifting the uncomfortableness?

But probably if you are uncomfortable with the new approach, you must be a backwards ass idiot who is going to be brow beaten into submissiveness by social media?

[Rocker Ute]

The real question is who is going to enforce these laws or non-laws or whatever and how are they going to do it?


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[LA Ute]

The real question is who is going to enforce these laws or non-laws or whatever and how are they going to do it?

Ding-ding-ding-ding. It's questionable (understatement alert) whether the DOJ even has the authority to mandate this kind of action. All they can do is threaten to sue, based on a theory (not settled law). It actually looks like a trap. Many school districts will go predictably go nuts over this (many already have), politicians will jump on board, any enforcement lawsuit will get tons of news media coverage and will provide tons of wonderful sound bites by crazy people. Candidates everywhere will be asked their position on the issue. It will be this year's version of the "War on Women," except it will be the "War on the Transgendered." Republicans will, of course, be the big meanies in the trumped-up "war.".

[NorthwestUteFan]

Here is part of the problem. Most of you would freak out if this guy followed your daughter into the Womens bathroom, wouldn't you? (this is not my friends' son). Would you ask him to see his birth certificate and check in his pants before allowing him into the restroom? Of course you wouldn't do that, you would simply go on your first impression of his face and general build.

10649967_401188610005708_4081818477139909582_n.jpg

My friends' son has been living as a boy officially for 4 years, and has always dressed more like a boy. He did the binding thing for a long time but just had the top half surgery done within the past year. I have always known him as a boy and called him by his male name (officially had that changed a few years ago). Besides being sort of short for a man, he doesn't really look any differ than his cis male peers.

All he wants to do is go into a bathroom, do his business, and not have anybody make a big deal about anything. trans people have been using the bathroom of their choice since before running water, and in fact Brigham Youngs oldest son is thought tohave been a trans female (and was photographed in dresses). it is merely the fact that there is broad political support for lgbt+ issues in the community that this is even an issue now, and political groups are crying 'Wolf!' with sweeping legislation that causes exponentially more problems than it solves.

My advice to the world is to quit worrying about the genitalia of the person in the shitter next to you.

And besides, a trans person is statistically FAR less likely to be a pedophile or ephebophile than any straight person you would pass on the street.

[LA Ute]

Here is part of the problem. Most of you would freak out if this guy followed your daughter into the Womens bathroom, wouldn't you? (this is not my friends' son). Would you ask him to see his birth certificate and check in his pants before allowing him into the restroom? Of course you wouldn't do that, you would simply go on your first impression of his face and general build.

10649967_401188610005708_4081818477139909582_n.jpg

My friends' son has been living as a boy officially for 4 years, and has always dressed more like a boy. He did the binding thing for a long time but just had the top half surgery done within the past year. I have always known him as a boy and called him by his male name (officially had that changed a few years ago). Besides being sort of short for a man, he doesn't really look any differ than his cis male peers.

All he wants to do is go into a bathroom, do his business, and not have anybody make a big deal about anything. trans people have been using the bathroom of their choice since before running water, and in fact Brigham Youngs oldest son is thought tohave been a trans female (and was photographed in dresses). it is merely the fact that there is broad political support for lgbt+ issues in the community that this is even an issue now, and political groups are crying 'Wolf!' with sweeping legislation that causes exponentially more problems than it solves.

My advice to the world is to quit worrying about the genitalia of the person in the shitter next to you.

And besides, a trans person is statistically FAR less likely to be a pedophile or ephebophile than any straight person you would pass on the street.

I don't think most people are worried about trans people. They're worried about others taking advantage of the loophole the DOJ letter creates.

[Rocker Ute]

Here is part of the problem. Most of you would freak out if this guy followed your daughter into the Womens bathroom, wouldn't you? (this is not my friends' son). Would you ask him to see his birth certificate and check in his pants before allowing him into the restroom? Of course you wouldn't do that, you would simply go on your first impression of his face and general build.

10649967_401188610005708_4081818477139909582_n.jpg

My friends' son has been living as a boy officially for 4 years, and has always dressed more like a boy. He did the binding thing for a long time but just had the top half surgery done within the past year. I have always known him as a boy and called him by his male name (officially had that changed a few years ago). Besides being sort of short for a man, he doesn't really look any differ than his cis male peers.

All he wants to do is go into a bathroom, do his business, and not have anybody make a big deal about anything. trans people have been using the bathroom of their choice since before running water, and in fact Brigham Youngs oldest son is thought tohave been a trans female (and was photographed in dresses). it is merely the fact that there is broad political support for lgbt+ issues in the community that this is even an issue now, and political groups are crying 'Wolf!' with sweeping legislation that causes exponentially more problems than it solves.

My advice to the world is to quit worrying about the genitalia of the person in the shitter next to you.

And besides, a trans person is statistically FAR less likely to be a pedophile or ephebophile than any straight person you would pass on the street.

Brigham Young's son would dress up as an opera singer for skits. He was married and had 10 children. Even if he was a legit cross dresser that is also different from actual gender dysphoria. But who cares other than people advancing their own political agenda?

I'm unable to find any stats that show transgender people are less likely to be pedophiles. Given the relative low sample size though and also trends among all population I would guess they are likely on par with everyone else, but I'm interested to see where you are getting that stat if it exists.

LA is right that people are more worried about the 'loophole' it creates. Like I said, who is going to monitor this and as far as the loophole goes, is a teenaged boy really going to take on a trans label just to get a peek at girls in a locker room at school? I find it unlikely.

Much ado about nothing.

If your friends transgender son is that well established is he really having trouble in bathrooms from other people?

All of this talk reminds me of my Jr High policy of going to the bathroom at home. There were always some jerk kids hanging out giving everyone trouble or kicking you in the butt while you tried to take a leak. They were equal opportunity punks.

There was also a kid who hit puberty early, shaving in 7th grade and hairy as a monkey. He had the most hairy legs and it appeared to go straight up his shorts to his neck. Kids nicknamed him dingleberry.

In short, I don't think anyone felt comfortable in the bathroom or locker room.

[sancho]

If your friends transgender son is that well established is he really having trouble in bathrooms from other people?

I had a conversation with a transgender friend yesterday. She is 4 years into the conversion process, and she still looks and sounds like a man. I imagine some people would be uncomfortable with her entering the women's locker room.

The photo Northwest posted is a good example, but there are also good examples in the other direction - transgender people who look much more like their biological gender than their psychological sex. So either way, people will be uncomfortable. If I were transgender, I would try to figure out which option would make the fewest people uncomfortable.

[sancho]

Brigham Young's son would dress up as an opera singer for skits. He was married and had 10 children. Even if he was a legit cross dresser that is also different from actual gender dysphoria. But who cares other than people advancing their own political agenda?

Funny. I remember a period during the early gay rights era when headlines regularly would pop up with speculation that so-and-so beloved historical figure was gay. It was usually an immense stretch based on something the guy said or wore once or how he liked his tea. Maybe we can enter a new era where we do it every time we find a photo of a famous guy as a baby in his christening gown.

[NorthwestUteFan]

It really isn't a problem. The laws in North Carolina and other places are creating a problem where none should exist. They actively passed a law that will exclude 0.003% of the population from shitting where they are comfortable, where the law could remain silent and nobody would be affected. I see the Obama administration's presidential order as a reaction to laws like this.

Students at a school in Seattle solved the problem themselves. They proposed to the that they could take a small Women's bathroom and convert it into an 'everybody' bathroom. Essentially they took a 3-stall restroom and converted it into a 2-stall restroom with bigger walls/doors for more privacy.

Frankly the biggest reason I would be nervous about using an 'everybody' bathroom is the risk of stinking up the joint or echoing a loud fart off the walls.

My friends' son came out to his friends several years ago and has been largely supported by friends and by school admin. The world is greatly evolved since I was in high school. There is little social cost for lgbt kids to come out, and therefore most kids have an acquaintance who is at least questioning his/her sexuality. When kids come out now, most of their friends will say, "Oh cool. {Hug} Did you finish your math homework?" I guess the anti-bullying campaigns over the last few decades have been effective.

My one close friend who came out in HS kept his secret for 5+ years, and then was subsequently shunned by everybody.

[mUUser]

Here is part of the problem. Most of you would freak out if this guy followed your daughter into the Womens bathroom, wouldn't you? (this is not my friends' son). Would you ask him to see his birth certificate and check in his pants before allowing him into the restroom? Of course you wouldn't do that, you would simply go on your first impression of his face and general build.......

10649967_401188610005708_4081818477139909582_n.jpg

I guess I'm not following. Yes, I'd be concerned if this guy followed my daughter/wife into the restroom, and would likely take a peek to see what was going on. And if him and two of his buddies followed them in, I'd rush my @ss in like my hair was on fire. You wouldn't? I apologize, but I'm not following your point......

Look, a few years ago I was concerned about gay marriage and the impact it would have on adoptions......really, our social structure in general. Today, I can't believe everyone isn't comfortable with legalizing gay marriage, especially those conservatives that want the government to take a smaller role in their lives. Do we really trust the government to determine which tax paying, law abiding citizens of sound mind should and should not have the same basic rights of all other tax paying, law abiding citizens of sound mind?

Anyway, the issue here has a "public safety" component that gay marriage simply doesn't have.

It's going to take a learning curve for most to get comfortable with this thing. Exercise some patience.

Also, I too would be interested in the studies that show a trans person is far less likely to be a sexual predator than a straight person. I actually believe you, but, you state it with such confidence that there must be a multitude of studies that demonstrate it.

[sancho]

I guess I'm not following. Yes, I'd be concerned if this guy followed my daughter/wife into the restroom, and would likely take a peek to see what was going on. And if him and two of his buddies followed them in, I'd rush my @ss in like my hair was on fire. You wouldn't? I apologize, but I'm not following your point......

He's saying that the guy in the photo would be required to use the women's restroom by the NC law because that guy was born a gal. The NC law forces people to use the wrong restroom in this way.

[Applejack]

This "issue" won't have the impact of gay marriage. Gay marriage impacted people's lives: look at the thousands of couples who now can marry each other (and divorce each other!). It was a movement that mattered.

This bathroom issue is just a cultural war fought by two political parties in an election year. You have the NC bathroom law (stupid) against the DOJ letter (stupid). In the end, we'll get the status quo. If you already look like a man (like the man in NWUF's post) you use the men's room-no one cares. If you look like a woman (like Sancho's friend) you continue to use the women's room. Either way, it works its way out without the government getting involved in our bathroom selection.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

It really isn't a problem. The laws in North Carolina and other places are creating a problem where none should exist. They actively passed a law that will exclude 0.003% of the population from shitting where they are comfortable, where the law could remain silent and nobody would be affected. I see the Obama administration's presidential order as a reaction to laws like this.

Right. I keep wanting to respond to LA's comment about a solution looking for a problem. That simply isn't the case. The most recent activity is a response to laws being passed that changed which bathroom a person to legally use. The irony about North Carolina's HB2 is that it st put more men in the women's room than it solved. These videos about women being emotionally triggered by bathrooms that are easier for sexual deviants to access, while ignoring the idea that it would now require a someone similar to the photo NWUF's shared to use the woman's restroom. Where are the videos addressing that? Talk about a solution looking for a problem.

[mUUser]

He was born a girl? That's an amazing transformation.

I was thinking it was a guy in the early stages of transforming into a girl and was completely confused. I can see some of the surgery scars now. Thanks.......

Yes, he belongs in the boys restroom, and Caitlyn Jenner belongs in the girls restroom. Seems reasonable to draw a line somewhere, but I don't have a friggin' clue where that line should be drawn.

[LA Ute]

Funny. I remember a period during the early gay rights era when headlines regularly would pop up with speculation that so-and-so beloved historical figure was gay. It was usually an immense stretch based on something the guy said or wore once or how he liked his tea. Maybe we can enter a new era where we do it every time we find a photo of a famous guy as a baby in his christening gown.

I'm hearing that both Lincoln and Jefferson were probably transgender. Washington's an open question -- not enough data. You can also find some hints in the New Testament that the Apostle Paul was too.

[Rocker Ute]

I'm hearing that both Lincoln and Jefferson were probably transgender. Washington's an open question -- not enough data. You can also find some hints in the New Testament that the Apostle Paul was too.

Yeah, doesn't it feel like Paul was overcompensating for something with his views on women, if you know what I mean?

[UTEopia]

With Texas now entering the fray, will this issue become as divisive and hateful as gay marriage?

[LA Ute]

With Texas now entering the fray, will this issue become as divisive and hateful as gay marriage?

I have given up making political predictions after the way this year has gone. But I won't be surprised if we hear an awful lot about this between now and November.

[UTEopia]

I have given up making political predictions after the way this year has gone. But I won't be surprised if we hear an awful lot about this between now and November.

I think the NC law and those like it were motivated almost totally by political efforts to energize the religious right so that they stay in the election this year. I think it had very little to do with protecting anyone while using the bathroom or the locker room. I don't think the law that they enacted does that anyway, but they have been successful in raising a hot topic button. I also do not believe that the Justice Department's reaction addresses the issue.

[LA Ute]

I think the NC law and those like it were motivated almost totally by political efforts to energize the religious right so that they stay in the election this year. I think it had very little to do with protecting anyone while using the bathroom or the locker room. I don't think the law that they enacted does that anyway, but they have been successful in raising a hot topic button. I also do not believe that the Justice Department's reaction addresses the issue.

The Justice Department letter elevated the issue to every public school district in the nation. I think that was intentional. Every candidate, everywhere, will now be asked about it. Republicans, mainly, and some Democrats, will be baited into saying really stupid things (which is not very hard to do, as history has shown). Those stupid statements will generate additional news, and the candidates' opponents will then respond, and all candidates will then be asked about the matter in debates. And so on and so on and so on.