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Thread: FBI and DOJ Announce Corruption Charges in College Basketball

  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Does that say that he should be fired? I was responding to a naive and ill-advised comment that the coaches are only still drawing a breath at the U of U because of the buyout. I was actually defending the coaches. And Sancho agrees with my point.

    I don’t care what Sancho says about taking me seriously or not. The facts are that I have been prescient about the direction of this program. You may recall that early on I rejected the innuendo the coaches spread about the players (they’re basically kids) leaving the program. Now everyone except apparently you agrees there’s a problem with too many transfers.

    You all owe me an apology for your bullying and abuse while the substance of my posts have been absolutely right.

    I’m not talking about concerned, Applejack, LA, U-Ute or Diehard.
    Sorry... I wont apologize.... FOR LOVING YOU TOO MUCH!
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Does that say that he should be fired? I was responding to a naive and ill-advised comment that the coaches are only still drawing a breath at the U of U because of the buyout. I was actually defending the coaches. And Sancho agrees with my point.

    I don’t care what Sancho says about taking me seriously or not. The facts are that I have been prescient about the direction of this program. You may recall that early on I rejected the innuendo the coaches spread about the players (they’re basically kids) leaving the program. Now everyone except apparently you agrees there’s a problem with too many transfers.

    You all owe me an apology for your bullying and abuse while the substance of my posts have been absolutely right.

    I’m not talking about concerned, Applejack, LA, U-Ute or Diehard.
    You are in rare form.

    I've never seen such an ability to talk out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you are offended that people would think you are suggesting that Krystkowiak should be fired for cause by suggesting just that. Then when called on it you conjure up out of nothing even said or implied that I don't think there should be concerned about the number of transfers.

    By the way, I never apologize. I'm sorry, that's just the way I am.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #303
    Krystko-Meth is a dead man walking. I have no inside information about anything: not about the buyout, the donors, the AD, men's lacrosse, etc. But I do know that missing the NCAAs for the 4th and 5th years in a row will not sit well with the fans.

    Krstko is just not a very good coach. Forget about recruiting. Forget about the transfers. Forget about the assistant coaches. Just look at the results. He's taken us to two (2!) NCaa tournaments: One which ended in the sweet sixteen on a team that featured three (3!) good to very good NBA players (i know, I know: Kuzma was a redshirt); and one which ended in the second round on a team that merely featured two (2!) NBA players. I don't know about you, but I think the over-under on the number of future NBA players in the current lineup is .5 and I'm definitely taking the under.

    So, we have a not-very-good coach coaching a team with average talent and we are asking him to get us to the tourney, something he has not done without multiple future NBA players. Sounds like a death sentence to me.

    I've become really jaded on Krstko. The transfers are poison. Losing the Charles Jones of the world happens all of the time in college sports; consistently losing your best, most promising players makes it really hard to enjoy the program. But the worst part for me is that the Utes are just not very well coached. It's time for Krystko to go.
    Last edited by Applejack; 08-15-2019 at 09:05 AM.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Krystko-Meth is a dead man walking. I have no inside information about anything: not about the buyout, the donors, the AD, men's lacrosse, etc. But I do know that missing the NCAAs for the 4th and 5th years in a row will not sit well with the fans.

    Krstko is just not a very good coach. Forget about recruiting. Forget about the transfers. Forget about the assistant coaches. Just look at the results. He's taken us to two (2!) NCaa tournaments: One which ended in the sweet sixteen on a team that featured three (3!) good to very good NBA players (i know, I know: Kuzma was a redshirt); and one which ended in the second round on a team that merely featured two (2!) NBA players. I don't know about you, but I think the over-under on the number of future NBA players in the current lineup is .5 and I'm definitely taking the under.

    So, we have a not-very-good coach coaching a team with average talent and we are asking him to get us to the tourney, something he has not done without multiple future NBA players. Sounds like a death sentence to me.

    I've become really jaded on Krstko. The transfers are poison. Losing the Charles Jones of the world happens all of the time in college sports; consistently losing your best, most promising players makes it really hard to enjoy the program. But the worst part for me is that the Utes are just not very well coached. It's time for Krystko to go.
    We really need to football to start. This is Dave Portnoy level trolling at this point.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    We really need to football to start. This is Dave Portnoy level trolling at this point.
    No it isn't. Seattle lives to troll, but AJ isn't saying anything crazy here. It does look grim for Larry for the reasons AJ listed. We aren't going dancing, and the transfer thing, which used to only involve mediocre players, has finally started to involve good players. We lost actual starters this off season.

    Offsetting the lack of tournament appearances and transfers are two things: Larry is bringing in our highest ranked recruiting classes ever, and Larry is widely regarded as the Pac-12 coach who can get the most out of his talent.

    The positives can only keep him afloat for so long if we don't start making the tournament. And we aren't about to make the tournament unless Rylan Jones is much much better than I expect him to be.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Sorry... I wont apologize.... FOR LOVING YOU TOO MUCH!
    Sorry. I probably should have included you. I can't remember any bullying or abuse from you.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    No it isn't. Seattle lives to troll, but AJ isn't saying anything crazy here. It does look grim for Larry for the reasons AJ listed. We aren't going dancing, and the transfer thing, which used to only involve mediocre players, has finally started to involve good players. We lost actual starters this off season.

    Offsetting the lack of tournament appearances and transfers are two things: Larry is bringing in our highest ranked recruiting classes ever, and Larry is widely regarded as the Pac-12 coach who can get the most out of his talent.

    The positives can only keep him afloat for so long if we don't start making the tournament. And we aren't about to make the tournament unless Rylan Jones is much much better than I expect him to be.
    To suggest that larry isn't a good coach and then throwing in hyperbole like "consistently losing your best, most promising players" is trolling to me.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    No it isn't. Seattle lives to troll, but AJ isn't saying anything crazy here. It does look grim for Larry for the reasons AJ listed. We aren't going dancing, and the transfer thing, which used to only involve mediocre players, has finally started to involve good players. We lost actual starters this off season.

    Offsetting the lack of tournament appearances and transfers are two things: Larry is bringing in our highest ranked recruiting classes ever, and Larry is widely regarded as the Pac-12 coach who can get the most out of his talent.

    The positives can only keep him afloat for so long if we don't start making the tournament. And we aren't about to make the tournament unless Rylan Jones is much much better than I expect him to be.
    This is similar to what University of Washington went through with Romar. Eventually they decided they had to fire him when he had the #1 recruiting class in the nation, knowing full well they would mostly decommit. Now they have a good coach who won the regular season last year, got into the NCAA playoffs within a year, and a top ten recruiting class.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    To suggest that larry isn't a good coach and then throwing in hyperbole like "consistently losing your best, most promising players" is trolling to me.
    I'm not interested in message board back and forth. Some thoughts: That's great that you have faith that Larry can right the ship. For me, the only thing Larry does well is develop/find good talent: Poetl, Kuzma, Delon, etc. He has done an otherworldly job of identifying talent that no one else does (Delon, Poetl) and he develops kids from the first day they get here to the last (Kuzma, B. Taylor, etc).

    As for coaching chops, his teams improve as the year progresses, but how much of that is how awful they are at the beginning? And does it really mean much to be better against the PAC-12 (minus Oregon) when the conference has been stinky for the past couple of years? I don't know, I have not felt like we had a real coaching advantage in years (except when we play USC and Enfield).

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I'm not interested in message board back and forth. Some thoughts: That's great that you have faith that Larry can right the ship. For me, the only thing Larry does well is develop/find good talent: Poetl, Kuzma, Delon, etc. He has done an otherworldly job of identifying talent that no one else does (Delon, Poetl) and he develops kids from the first day they get here to the last (Kuzma, B. Taylor, etc).

    As for coaching chops, his teams improve as the year progresses, but how much of that is how awful they are at the beginning? And does it really mean much to be better against the PAC-12 (minus Oregon) when the conference has been stinky for the past couple of years? I don't know, I have not felt like we had a real coaching advantage in years (except when we play USC and Enfield).
    What about his in-game coaching?
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    What about his in-game coaching?
    Very mediocre, imo.

    To be fair, Krstyko is in the strange position of being compared to recent coaches (as everyone is) and those coaches being the best/worst of all-time. some (like SU, myself, and others) compare him to the Fat Man: a basketball savant who would out coach people so bad that they would want to cry (Lute Olsen, the guy who followed Dean Smith). Others compare him to Giac and Boylen, the former one of the worst basketball minds ever put in charge of a team and the latter a slathering ball of energy. Nearly every coach looks like a moron next to Rick and a genius next to Giac-Boylen.

    I fall back on results. He brought us back from nowheresville. He's had 2 NCAA tourney appearances in 8 years. He's had amazing talent (3 NBA first round draft picks). Yet, I think it is fair to say that he has generally disappointed. To me, he is an average coach and the recent results (CBI) are what we should expect barring a Delon or Poetl level talent falling in our lap.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Very mediocre, imo.

    To be fair, Krstyko is in the strange position of being compared to recent coaches (as everyone is) and those coaches being the best/worst of all-time. some (like SU, myself, and others) compare him to the Fat Man: a basketball savant who would out coach people so bad that they would want to cry (Lute Olsen, the guy who followed Dean Smith). Others compare him to Giac and Boylen, the former one of the worst basketball minds ever put in charge of a team and the latter a slathering ball of energy. Nearly every coach looks like a moron next to Rick and a genius next to Giac-Boylen.

    I fall back on results. He brought us back from nowheresville. He's had 2 NCAA tourney appearances in 8 years. He's had amazing talent (3 NBA first round draft picks). Yet, I think it is fair to say that he has generally disappointed. To me, he is an average coach and the recent results (CBI) are what we should expect barring a Delon or Poetl level talent falling in our lap.
    Too bad that his second NCAA appearance was so excruciating. Mark Few made us see reality as to where Krystkowiak sits in the coaching pecking order As has Altman.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  13. #313
    I view Krystkowiak a little bit like McBride. He brought us from the cellar to mediocrity while underutilizing some significant talent (that we now recognize in hindsight). I think we've seen as good as it gets with him, which is a occasional tourney run.

    I don't believe in trying to get a buyout now, and I don't believe in firing him for cause for the reason I stated previously (program poison). But I hope we can find an Urban or Whittingham type basketball coach to take us to the next level.

    Can Harlan do that?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I view Krystkowiak a little bit like McBride. He brought us from the cellar to mediocrity while underutilizing some significant talent (that we now recognize in hindsight). I think we've seen as good as it gets with him, which is a occasional tourney run.

    I don't believe in trying to get a buyout now, and I don't believe in firing him for cause for the reason I stated previously (program poison). But I hope we can find an Urban or Whittingham type basketball coach to take us to the next level.

    Can Harlan do that?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think the McBride analogy is a sound one. And I don't know who we could get and if they would be better. But I do know that the downside risk is pretty low. If we hire a average coach we will be exactly where we are now; the chances of hiring a home wrecker (ala Giac) are pretty low.

  15. #315
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Very mediocre, imo.

    To be fair, Krstyko is in the strange position of being compared to recent coaches (as everyone is) and those coaches being the best/worst of all-time. some (like SU, myself, and others) compare him to the Fat Man: a basketball savant who would out coach people so bad that they would want to cry (Lute Olsen, the guy who followed Dean Smith). Others compare him to Giac and Boylen, the former one of the worst basketball minds ever put in charge of a team and the latter a slathering ball of energy. Nearly every coach looks like a moron next to Rick and a genius next to Giac-Boylen.

    I fall back on results. He brought us back from nowheresville. He's had 2 NCAA tourney appearances in 8 years. He's had amazing talent (3 NBA first round draft picks). Yet, I think it is fair to say that he has generally disappointed. To me, he is an average coach and the recent results (CBI) are what we should expect barring a Delon or Poetl level talent falling in our lap.
    Sadly, I think this is about right. Good insights, AJ.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
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  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I view Krystkowiak a little bit like McBride. He brought us from the cellar to mediocrity while underutilizing some significant talent (that we now recognize in hindsight). I think we've seen as good as it gets with him, which is a occasional tourney run.

    I don't believe in trying to get a buyout now, and I don't believe in firing him for cause for the reason I stated previously (program poison). But I hope we can find an Urban or Whittingham type basketball coach to take us to the next level.

    Can Harlan do that?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't think this is right. Before McBride, football had ZERO tradition. Basketball needs to get back to what has worked in the past when Utah was a distinguished program and tradition and still works for programs with similar challenges to Utah's. See Texas Tech, even Virginia. Utah needs a coach who will recruit players suited for and who will buy into a tightly disciplined program on offense and defense and who has himself the discipline, work ethic, and intelligence to coach such a program. The players we've had recently just aren't fanatics like Andre Miller, Josh Grant, Michael Doleac, et al. There aren't any icons among players we've been seeing. Development of NBA players is a sign of coaching ability, but the highest priority shouldn't be players with NBA aspirations. Too much of that can destabilize a program, as we've seen with Washington, Georgetown, UNLV, and others.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I don't think this is right. Before McBride, football had ZERO tradition. Basketball needs to get back to what has worked in the past when Utah was a distinguished program and tradition and still works for programs with similar challenges to Utah's. See Texas Tech, even Virginia. Utah needs a coach who will recruit players suited for and who will buy into a tightly disciplined program on offense and defense and who has himself the discipline, work ethic, and intelligence to coach such a program. The players we've had recently just aren't fanatics like Andre Miller, Josh Grant, Michael Doleac, et al. There aren't any icons among players we've been seeing. Development of NBA players is a sign of coaching ability, but the highest priority shouldn't be players with NBA aspirations. Too much of that can destabilize a program, as we've seen with Washington, Georgetown, UNLV, and others.
    I said "a little bit like McBride" not exactly like McBride. Our program was in the toilet, he got us out of that, for which he deserves some respect, but we've likely seen the best he can offer us. McBride was never going to take us to the next level, and K is unlikely to do so either. But for some of the reasons you've cited, I also believe with the right coach we could get back to where we want this program to be.

  18. #318
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    I think most of us are starting to sour on Krysko I certainly am. Energy/hype around the program is as low as I’ve seen it. It reminds me of Utah football back in the Stobart days. Some of that isn’t Larry’s fault. Football has exploded and left basketball in its wake. And Larry’s teams are a casualty of that. I’d also argue that his health has taken a toll on the programs progress. How could it not? I’m willing to give Larry next season to build some momentum (what that is exactly I don’t know – NIT bid?). My fear is that they keep Larry for two more years and somehow miraculously he does just enough to extend him. If that happens I could see us fall into the same cycle and be stuck for 5 more years instead of 1-2.

    Looking back on it, I think it was a mistake for Larry to cancel the basketball series with BYU. At the time, I was on Larry’s side for that controversy. But years later I think that has hurt his credibility with many fans, media and even probably a few recruits. I think we’re all just hoping that football is so over the top successful that basketball season will be an afterthought come Spring 2020 and we’ll still be riding the football season wave into Jan/Feb.

  19. #319
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    We really need to football to start. This is Dave Portnoy level trolling at this point.
    Nothing about that is trolling. Every line of that post is accurate.

    Also, I <3 SeattleUte
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
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  20. #320
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    You win, or lose, because of talent.

    Do you think Calipari is the next Wooden? Actually, I take that back. Wooden had Alcindor and plenty of people to drop bags of money for him. Rick is probably among the few coaches I can think of that appeared to do it only with Oreo cookies and Crown Burger. The last time I checked, we still aren't located any closer to LA than when Rick was coaching.

    The talent level has continued to improve each year under K. I think he got over his skis with reaching for a few knuckleheads and has learned his lesson. Onwas was never going to take this team to the Sweet 16. The Headband was a nice player, but I never got him confused with Zion Williamson.

    He has better talent now than we have ever had in the past. Gach and Thioune are a level above anything we've had here athletically since Byron Wilson, but with serious length. I think he can develop those guys. He has developed talent in the past. Brandon Taylor, Dakari Tucker, PVD, and JLove come to mind. Gach and Thioune are at a different level than those guys. If he can develop the new guys like he did those guys, we will be just fine.

    I admit that I am perplexed by the Tillman situation. That's one I don't understand. He is the only guy I can think of that had serious talent that didn't progress. But to say that the coaching staff is a failure because of one kid is pretty ridiculous.

  21. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    He is the only guy I can think of that had serious talent that didn't progress. But to say that the coaching staff is a failure because of one kid is pretty ridiculous.
    He improved defensively quite a bit. He was our closest thing to a lock down defender by the end of last season.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I don't think this is right. Before McBride, football had ZERO tradition. Basketball needs to get back to what has worked in the past when Utah was a distinguished program and tradition and still works for programs with similar challenges to Utah's. See Texas Tech, even Virginia. Utah needs a coach who will recruit players suited for and who will buy into a tightly disciplined program on offense and defense and who has himself the discipline, work ethic, and intelligence to coach such a program. The players we've had recently just aren't fanatics like Andre Miller, Josh Grant, Michael Doleac, et al. There aren't any icons among players we've been seeing. Development of NBA players is a sign of coaching ability, but the highest priority shouldn't be players with NBA aspirations. Too much of that can destabilize a program, as we've seen with Washington, Georgetown, UNLV, and others.
    I've said this before. But the dirty little secret about Utah is that our history is far more outlaw/renegade in hoops than people give us credit for. We were one of the first to take black players. We were signing Prop 48s in large numbers both before and after the NCAA brought that qualifying standard about. We've been pioneers in recruiting overseas. We've had great success mining the JUCO ranks (admittedly, JUCO ball isn't anywhere close to what it was through the 1990s with the advent of prep schools).

    We're still paying the price for Boylen blowing up the Aussie pipeline. Nathan Jawai wasn't his fault (he wasn't Ray's, either, but Jawai fit every stereotype about the dangers of recruiting players far away from home), but Steven Weigh and Patty Mills (we got Tyler Kepkay instead, who was highly improved in his second year, but still ... Patty Mills!) were major black marks on Boylen's resume. After Bogut, we should've owned that continent (It's beyond ironic that we kinda do with kicking specialists in football). We're never gonna get a steady stream of 4-star and one-and-dones at Utah, so we gotta create an environment that is overly friendly to the foreign player, while hitting the state and SoCal hard. We really don't need anything else. Generational players who came from elsewhere (Delon, NickyJake, for starters) did so because Utah was clearly their best option.

    Instead, we're totally adrift. No sizzle about the program. It took mandates from the league (and a slew of missed NCAA berths) for Larry to finally grasp the importance of quality scheduling. But once we got that right, we experience the biggest exodus of talent the program has ever seen. It's fair to say Utah can't catch a break; it's also fair to say we've created a good chunk of our own misfortune.

    I am totally ambivalent about the program right now past the kids just enjoying their college experience and a sense of pride in what they accomplished at Utah, enough so that they'll come back to campus and be invested in the program. Our next coach needs to realize times are different in player management -- anything to stop kids from leaving before they deliver the payoff from our investment in them. They also need to be proven recruiters, ideally in a region or continent outside the U.S. I've said Utah would serve itself well to be ahead of the game in the Middle East and Africa. Having Gach on the team certainly helps.

  23. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Instead, we're totally adrift. No sizzle about the program.
    I agree with one caveat - we are recruiting at ranking levels previously unknown to Utah.

    I will also add that our problems should be framed by the large issues facing all of college basketball right now. The sport is a mess. Cheating is rampant, officiating is disastrous, interest was down until Zion rescued it for a season, attendance is down, players are trained in a bizarre and exploitative AAU system.
    Last edited by sancho; 08-16-2019 at 08:52 AM.

  24. #324
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I agree with one caveat - we are recruiting at ranking levels previously unknown to Utah.

    I will also add that our problems should be framed by the large issues facing all of college basketball right now. The sport is a mess. Cheating is rampant, officiating is disastrous, interest was down until Zion rescued it for a season, attendance is down, players are trained in a bizarre, and exploitative AAU system.
    I agree with all of this. College basketball is a hot mess right now.

  25. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I've said this before. But the dirty little secret about Utah is that our history is far more outlaw/renegade in hoops than people give us credit for. We were one of the first to take black players. We were signing Prop 48s in large numbers both before and after the NCAA brought that qualifying standard about. We've been pioneers in recruiting overseas. We've had great success mining the JUCO ranks (admittedly, JUCO ball isn't anywhere close to what it was through the 1990s with the advent of prep schools).

    We're still paying the price for Boylen blowing up the Aussie pipeline. Nathan Jawai wasn't his fault (he wasn't Ray's, either, but Jawai fit every stereotype about the dangers of recruiting players far away from home), but Steven Weigh and Patty Mills (we got Tyler Kepkay instead, who was highly improved in his second year, but still ... Patty Mills!) were major black marks on Boylen's resume. After Bogut, we should've owned that continent (It's beyond ironic that we kinda do with kicking specialists in football). We're never gonna get a steady stream of 4-star and one-and-dones at Utah, so we gotta create an environment that is overly friendly to the foreign player, while hitting the state and SoCal hard. We really don't need anything else. Generational players who came from elsewhere (Delon, NickyJake, for starters) did so because Utah was clearly their best option.

    Instead, we're totally adrift. No sizzle about the program. It took mandates from the league (and a slew of missed NCAA berths) for Larry to finally grasp the importance of quality scheduling. But once we got that right, we experience the biggest exodus of talent the program has ever seen. It's fair to say Utah can't catch a break; it's also fair to say we've created a good chunk of our own misfortune.

    I am totally ambivalent about the program right now past the kids just enjoying their college experience and a sense of pride in what they accomplished at Utah, enough so that they'll come back to campus and be invested in the program. Our next coach needs to realize times are different in player management -- anything to stop kids from leaving before they deliver the payoff from our investment in them. They also need to be proven recruiters, ideally in a region or continent outside the U.S. I've said Utah would serve itself well to be ahead of the game in the Middle East and Africa. Having Gach on the team certainly helps.
    There's a really good series on ESPN right now called "Chasing Ghosts" about hoops programs that haven't been able to achieve the level of success they once did under a legendary coach. Here's the one about Georgetown: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...eep-georgetown

    Other teams they feature are UNLV, DePaul, Arkansas, UCLA, UMass, St. Johns, NC State.

    I'd love to see a piece like this on Utah. I started in on some research, but I just don't have the time or a platform to publish that kind of piece. The immediate thing that jumps out at you is that Rick was here for 15 years and the combo of Larry, Boylen and Giac have been at Utah for a combined 15 years and the production is just nowhere near that. Hell, Larry has lost the same number of games (give or take) in 8 seasons that Rick lost in 15.

    Anyway, I think Utah falls into that chasing ghosts category quite a bit.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  26. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    There's a really good series on ESPN right now called "Chasing Ghosts" about hoops programs that haven't been able to achieve the level of success they once did under a legendary coach. Here's the one about Georgetown: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...eep-georgetown

    Other teams they feature are UNLV, DePaul, Arkansas, UCLA, UMass, St. Johns, NC State.

    I'd love to see a piece like this on Utah. I started in on some research, but I just don't have the time or a platform to publish that kind of piece. The immediate thing that jumps out at you is that Rick was here for 15 years and the combo of Larry, Boylen and Giac have been at Utah for a combined 15 years and the production is just nowhere near that. Hell, Larry has lost the same number of games (give or take) in 8 seasons that Rick lost in 15.

    Anyway, I think Utah falls into that chasing ghosts category quite a bit.
    I always thought 30-For-30 should have done a piece about the championship game run: what it took to get a school like Utah (in the WAC) there and the implications of falling a half short of the brass ring just to realize that you will never have that chance ever again. Could have been very poignant.

  27. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I've said this before. But the dirty little secret about Utah is that our history is far more outlaw/renegade in hoops than people give us credit for. We were one of the first to take black players. We were signing Prop 48s in large numbers both before and after the NCAA brought that qualifying standard about. We've been pioneers in recruiting overseas. We've had great success mining the JUCO ranks (admittedly, JUCO ball isn't anywhere close to what it was through the 1990s with the advent of prep schools).

    We're still paying the price for Boylen blowing up the Aussie pipeline. Nathan Jawai wasn't his fault (he wasn't Ray's, either, but Jawai fit every stereotype about the dangers of recruiting players far away from home), but Steven Weigh and Patty Mills (we got Tyler Kepkay instead, who was highly improved in his second year, but still ... Patty Mills!) were major black marks on Boylen's resume. After Bogut, we should've owned that continent (It's beyond ironic that we kinda do with kicking specialists in football). We're never gonna get a steady stream of 4-star and one-and-dones at Utah, so we gotta create an environment that is overly friendly to the foreign player, while hitting the state and SoCal hard. We really don't need anything else. Generational players who came from elsewhere (Delon, NickyJake, for starters) did so because Utah was clearly their best option.

    Instead, we're totally adrift. No sizzle about the program. It took mandates from the league (and a slew of missed NCAA berths) for Larry to finally grasp the importance of quality scheduling. But once we got that right, we experience the biggest exodus of talent the program has ever seen. It's fair to say Utah can't catch a break; it's also fair to say we've created a good chunk of our own misfortune.

    I am totally ambivalent about the program right now past the kids just enjoying their college experience and a sense of pride in what they accomplished at Utah, enough so that they'll come back to campus and be invested in the program. Our next coach needs to realize times are different in player management -- anything to stop kids from leaving before they deliver the payoff from our investment in them. They also need to be proven recruiters, ideally in a region or continent outside the U.S. I've said Utah would serve itself well to be ahead of the game in the Middle East and Africa. Having Gach on the team certainly helps.
    Great post.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  28. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    There's a really good series on ESPN right now called "Chasing Ghosts" about hoops programs that haven't been able to achieve the level of success they once did under a legendary coach. Here's the one about Georgetown: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...eep-georgetown

    Other teams they feature are UNLV, DePaul, Arkansas, UCLA, UMass, St. Johns, NC State.

    I'd love to see a piece like this on Utah. I started in on some research, but I just don't have the time or a platform to publish that kind of piece. The immediate thing that jumps out at you is that Rick was here for 15 years and the combo of Larry, Boylen and Giac have been at Utah for a combined 15 years and the production is just nowhere near that. Hell, Larry has lost the same number of games (give or take) in 8 seasons that Rick lost in 15.

    Anyway, I think Utah falls into that chasing ghosts category quite a bit.
    So what? This is stupid. What's gotten into you? We chased Jack Gardner's ghost, fired Lynn Archibald because of it, and we hired Majerus. Alabama went through a bunch of mediocre to bad hires chasing Bear Bryant, until they hired Nick Saban. Same with Kentucky after Rupp. I think UCLA may have its best hire now in a long time. I don't care if we're like Peronistas. Our entire sports program generates about $93 million and the school has a $4 billion budget and most of that is for work that matters maybe more than anything else; the point of this enterprise is not basketball. There's no point to this basketball program other than fun anyway, is my point. We have nothing to lose by our high expectations and aspirations. I say keep chasing ghosts until we hit on a worthy coach.

    And I have no problem being cold about the coaches. They are big boys. They know how this business is and got into it with their eyes wide open. They operate in an arena and at a level that is very public and where expectations are sky high, and they are well paid for it. They will never fail to have enough to live on. I'm not interested in any sob story from you about them.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  29. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    So what? This is stupid. What's gotten into you? We chased Jack Gardner's ghost, fired Lynn Archibald because of it, and we hired Majerus. Alabama went through a bunch of mediocre to bad hires chasing Bear Bryant, until they hired Nick Saban. Same with Kentucky after Rupp. I think UCLA may have its best hire now in a long time. I don't care if we're like Peronistas. Our entire sports program generates about $93 million and the school has a $4 billion budget and most of that is for work that matters maybe more than anything else; the point of this enterprise is not basketball. There's no point to this basketball program other than fun anyway, is my point. We have nothing to lose by our high expectations and aspirations. I say keep chasing ghosts until we hit on a worthy coach.

    And I have no problem being cold about the coaches. They are big boys. They know how this business is and got into it with their eyes wide open. They operate in an arena and at a level that is very public and where expectations are sky high, and they are well paid for it. They will never fail to have enough to live on. I'm not interested in any sob story from you about them.
    You seem to have missed the point of my post...but it sure as shit isn't a sob story about any post-Majerus coach.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  30. #330
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I agree with one caveat - we are recruiting at ranking levels previously unknown to Utah.

    I will also add that our problems should be framed by the large issues facing all of college basketball right now. The sport is a mess. Cheating is rampant, officiating is disastrous, interest was down until Zion rescued it for a season, attendance is down, players are trained in a bizarre and exploitative AAU system.
    I think that we’re recruiting so well is merely the exclamation point to how great a school Utah is, that SLC is a fun city, that there are great people all around, we have some great facilities and play in a high-profile league. Things that the current staff had almost zero impact in creating. If anything, they consistently do less with more, and with the rate of of transfers out of the program, they get little credit from me for recruiting.
    Last edited by SoCalPat; 08-18-2019 at 07:24 PM.

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