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Thread: FBI and DOJ Announce Corruption Charges in College Basketball

  1. #31
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I just saw that one of Chuck Person's top 100 Auburn recruits decommitted.
    .
    Do you think he would still be called The Rifleman in prison?
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  2. #32
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    So, the follow-up articles on espn are marginally helpful.

    They indicate that the coaches were soliciting/accepting bribes from athletic-gear companies (or just one), and agents, and then the coaches agreed to steer the players to them.
    Some of that bribe-money / seed-money ended up in the hands of players, which is why the NCAA violations are afoot, but giving money to the players doesn't seem to be the crime.


    However, the one article (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-investigation) seems to leave some gaps in the dot-to-dot.

    For example:



    This doesn't address why giving money to a "young basketball player" is against the law - probably because it doesn't seem to be.
    The IRS would disagree.

  3. #33
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    The IRS would disagree.
    that's a fair point. Is that being mentioned anywhere?

    Also, at least now we have better information on who is shelling out the big-money for recruits. It's not just well-heeled boosters. It seems like it's a well-oiled industrial machine.
    I really hope the kids involved don't suffer too much for this. I imagine that many of them were minors when the recruiting shenanigans went down.
    Last edited by Solon; 09-27-2017 at 03:16 PM.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  4. #34
    Bill Riley tweeted today that as of now Under Armour has received no subpoenas of any kind.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I really hope the kids involved don't suffer too much for this. I imagine that many of them were minors when the recruiting shenanigans went down.
    They're certainly less guilty than the coaches. But they did knowingly cheat at a sport.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    They're certainly less guilty than the coaches. But they did knowingly cheat at a sport.
    You are missing the big issue here. Guys like chuck person are directing mostly poor and uneducated kids and families to financial advisors, not because they are the best for these kids, but because they are paying these guys under the table to do so. They are totally taking advantage of these kids for personal gain and sending them to slime ball advisors who repeatedly rip these kids off.
    Last edited by Two Utes; 09-27-2017 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    You are missing the big issue here. First, Guys like chuck person are directing mostly poor and uneducated kids and families to financial advisors, not because they are the best for these kids, but because they are paying these guys under the table to do so. They are totally taking advantage of these kids for personal gain and sending them to slime ball advisors who repeatedly rip these kids off.

    According to Pat Forde. Alabama is up next. It would surprise me if Avery Johnson was up to no good.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    You are missing the big issue here. Guys like chuck person are directing mostly poor and uneducated kids and families to financial advisors, not because they are the best for these kids, but because they are paying these guys under the table to do so. They are totally taking advantage of these kids for personal gain and sending them to slime ball advisors who repeatedly rip these kids off.
    I thought I said the students were less guilty? Of course they are not the slime balls.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    You are missing the big issue here. Guys like chuck person are directing mostly poor and uneducated kids and families to financial advisors, not because they are the best for these kids, but because they are paying these guys under the table to do so. They are totally taking advantage of these kids for personal gain and sending them to slime ball advisors who repeatedly rip these kids off.
    Alabama's associate athletic director in charge of basketball just resigned.

  10. #40
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I think the landscape of college basketball may change forever after this. I consider that a good thing.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think the landscape of college basketball may change forever after this. I consider that a good thing.
    This absolutely is a GREAT thing.

    The only thing that could make this better for CBB would be a statement from the NBA requiring players to be three years out of HS or 21 yrs old before joining the NBA.

  12. #42
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    This absolutely is a GREAT thing.

    The only thing that could make this better for CBB would be a statement from the NBA requiring players to be three years out of HS or 21 yrs old before joining the NBA.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think the landscape of college basketball may change forever after this. I consider that a good thing.
    Maybe. It may be that we decide the ideal form of college athletics is impossible to enforce. It could lead to some pre-professional, minor league, olympic model stuff, which would be unfortunate.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    This absolutely is a GREAT thing.

    The only thing that could make this better for CBB would be a statement from the NBA requiring players to be three years out of HS or 21 yrs old before joining the NBA.
    I strongly disagree with this. If we want to avoid the paying of players, then let the players get paid! There should be no age limits on the NBA; if you are good enough to go, the NCAA certainly shouldn't stop you.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I strongly disagree with this. If we want to avoid the paying of players, then let the players get paid! There should be no age limits on the NBA; if you are good enough to go, the NCAA certainly shouldn't stop you.
    I think there's probably some middle ground here. If a player doesn't want to go to college, and the NBA doesn't want to budge on its age limit, then those players should be allowed to be drafted into the NBDL (what is it called now? G - league?). If they really don't want to go to school, they can play in that league and make 25-35k per year, living in Boise, or Richmond, or wherever, and then when the time comes, they are eligible to be drafted into the NBA. If they are not good enough for the NBA (as is the case with some of the early entrants), they can stay in the D-League and at least have a career of some kind. In the meantime, the NBA should set up some kind of career counseling program that allows players that simply aren't good enough and got bad advice to find a vocation of some kind that works for them (even if that is playing ball overseas - Jimmer) so that they have something they can go to/fall back on.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  16. #46
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    I think there's probably some middle ground here. If a player doesn't want to go to college, and the NBA doesn't want to budge on its age limit, then those players should be allowed to be drafted into the NBDL (what is it called now? G - league?). If they really don't want to go to school, they can play in that league and make 25-35k per year, living in Boise, or Richmond, or wherever, and then when the time comes, they are eligible to be drafted into the NBA. If they are not good enough for the NBA (as is the case with some of the early entrants), they can stay in the D-League and at least have a career of some kind. In the meantime, the NBA should set up some kind of career counseling program that allows players that simply aren't good enough and got bad advice to find a vocation of some kind that works for them (even if that is playing ball overseas - Jimmer) so that they have something they can go to/fall back on.
    ESPN reporting that Pitino is "Coach 2" in the documents.
    i know the guy is innocent until proven guilty, but sheesh. It looks really bad for Pitino and Louisville.
    http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...mplaint-source
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I strongly disagree with this. If we want to avoid the paying of players, then let the players get paid!
    I completely agree with this part. They should get paid beyond tuition/expenses, and should be required to attend classes.

    But everything should be above board and out in the open. There should be transparency and caps on the amount paid, otherwise the wealthiest schools will just outbid everyone else.

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    I completely agree with this part. They should get paid beyond tuition/expenses, and should be required to attend classes.

    But everything should be above board and out in the open. There should be transparency and caps on the amount paid, otherwise the wealthiest schools will just outbid everyone else.
    This will work fine...if there's a draft. Otherwise, the under-the-board stuff will continue but with a higher baseline.

    If we abandon the idea that these are student-athletes, why continue with the pretense of the student part? Why should they have to enroll in class at all? They aren't there for a degree. They are there as a job. It would make a lot of things easier - no worries about eligibility. It's silly to say "you're fired from your basketball job because you got a D- in your chemistry lab."

    I can see the winds of change, so I know college athletics as we know it can't survive for too long. I'd like to hold on as long as we can before we are officially a minor league, though.

    In a pure free market scenario, how many student athletes are actually worth less than the tuition they currently receive?

  19. #49
    Here is a scary thought:

    what if college football and basketball dont exist in 20-30 years, at least in their current form and at current popularity levels?

    football because of concussion and brain damage goes the way of boxing

    bb because the NBA expands the G league to a full fledged minor league so that lots of players go there straightaway--they dont make NBA money, but they sign sneaker deals above board and legally, get rid of the middleman. (Dan patrick was speculating about this today)

  20. #50
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This will work fine...if there's a draft. Otherwise, the under-the-board stuff will continue but with a higher baseline.

    If we abandon the idea that these are student-athletes, why continue with the pretense of the student part? Why should they have to enroll in class at all? They aren't there for a degree. They are there as a job. It would make a lot of things easier - no worries about eligibility. It's silly to say "you're fired from your basketball job because you got a D- in your chemistry lab."

    I can see the winds of change, so I know college athletics as we know it can't survive for too long. I'd like to hold on as long as we can before we are officially a minor league, though.

    In a pure free market scenario, how many student athletes are actually worth less than the tuition they currently receive?
    My suspicion is that most of them are worth less, when you consider the total number of male/female student-athletes in all of the different sports.
    The big schools should probably spin off their football & men's basketball teams as independent businesses or whatever, and leave the amateurism for the other sports. College sports really does work for a lot of kids.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Here is a scary thought:

    what if college football and basketball dont exist in 20-30 years, at least in their current form and at current popularity levels?

    football because of concussion and brain damage goes the way of boxing

    bb because the NBA expands the G league to a full fledged minor league so that lots of players go there straightaway--they dont make NBA money, but they sign sneaker deals above board and legally, get rid of the middleman. (Dan patrick was speculating about this today)
    This is why the U should have added soccer instead of lacrosse. If football does die as a sport, we will need to replace it with something.

    Sports in general seem to become less popular with each generation. The whole college athletics thing could die and be replaced with League of Legends tournaments.

  22. #52
    I'd say follow the baseball model.

    Expand the NBA draft to 5 rounds. To be eligible for the draft you must be 18 OR completed your college "tour of duty".

    If you are drafted, you can go sign with your team or go play college ball. If you play college ball, you are not eligible for the draft for three years.

    Expand NBA rosters to 25 players. 15 "NBA" players and 10 G-League players.

    This way everyone can be drafted, NBA teams can put players in the G-League and pay them, and if a kid goes to college, then college teams have some sort of stability and the kids can be better coached.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This is why the U should have added soccer instead of lacrosse. If football does die as a sport, we will need to replace it with something.

    Sports in general seem to become less popular with each generation. The whole college athletics thing could die and be replaced with League of Legends tournaments.
    I'm going slightly off topic here, but I've thought about how sports are dying as well. It's so different now compared to when I grew up. I played football, basketball and baseball all throughout high school.

    Now a days, these kids have so much more "sports" pressure than I did. I went to practice, played hard, and when the season ended, I moved onto the next sport. These days, they are year round.

    Heck, even my 7 year old is playing city league soccer and he has practice three times a week and two games on some saturdays.

    It's ridiculous. It's too much. He needs time to be a kid. Find bugs, climb trees, swear with his friends.

    Putting your kid in a sport year round won't get them to college or the pros. Your kid has it or he doesn't. This culture now a days is silly.

    I can see why sports are less popular now. It was fun for me growing up. Sports are almost like a job for these kids. It's too bad. I can see why they'd rather play/watch video games.

  24. #54
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is interesting, coming from an Arizona fan site:

    Arizona basketball: Wildcats allegedly offered a recruit $150,000 per FBI documents



    https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basket...ook-richardson

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #55
    Most players are probably worth less than the cost of their tuition, but that is taking the dollar cost of the incredibly overpriced tuition at face value.

    Is the $30k+ tuition at most schools REALLY worth $30k? To most kids, no way.

  26. #56
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  27. #57
    I don't think colleges should pay great athletes (I have no issues if they want to, but the way I understand higher education they shouldn't). What I think is really causing heartburn for some could be eliminated if the NBA (and the NFL) dropped the pretense and just allowed anybody, regardless of age, to be drafted. Then the whole 1-and-done phenomenon would die.

  28. #58
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I don't think colleges should pay great athletes (I have no issues if they want to, but the way I understand higher education they shouldn't). What I think is really causing heartburn for some could be eliminated if the NBA (and the NFL) dropped the pretense and just allowed anybody, regardless of age, to be drafted. Then the whole 1-and-done phenomenon would die.
    What do you think about handling it the way MLB does?

    In the NFL and NBA drafts, high school players are (now) ineligible. College players who are underclassmen must declare for the draft. If they remain in the draft until it occurs, they have given up NCAA eligibility and have "gone pro" whether they are drafted or not.

    In the MLB draft, a player can be picked as many as five times before signing. Players are eligible after their high school senior year. They can be drafted, but even after being drafted they can either sign or opt to go to school.

    At that point, a player who goes to a four-year institution is with one exception ineligible to be drafted again until after his third year in school.
    But even then, a player picked after his third year in school can opt to return to school again.


    That one exception is players who turn 21 within 45 days of the end of the draft are eligible to be drafted whether they are in their third year of school or not. Usually this rule applies to sophomores, but in a few exceptions freshmen have been eligible as well.


    A player who goes to a junior college can be drafted at the end of any year of their junior college career. So conceivably, a player can be drafted in high school, after a freshman year at a junior college, again after their sophomore season at a junior college, then after a redshirt year at a Division I school, again after their redshirt junior season and then after their senior season.


    Slot bonus rules means that most teams now sign all their top 10-round picks and most of their picks in the top 15 rounds. But very few teams ever sign everyone they draft and some draftees will never even receiver a significant bonus offer from the team that picked them.

    Read more at http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft...ZkzOxVVh4tU.99

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #59
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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  30. #60
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    LOL

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