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Thread: FBI and DOJ Announce Corruption Charges in College Basketball

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    If cookies and milk are lack of institutional control, so is discussing 6 figure payoffs to land a recruit


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    Yes but you cant indict and arrest a coach for lack of institutional control. C'mon, you know that.

  2. #152
    So Sean Miller's contract gives him a huge lump of money for this. Does that mean both he and Arizona anticipated the possibility of getting canned for cheating?

  3. #153
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    So Sean Miller's contract gives him a huge lump of money for this. Does that mean both he and Arizona anticipated the possibility of getting canned for cheating?
    It certainly seems like Arizona incentivized the possibility.

    “We know you have to cheat to succeed. We will pay you out if you get busted.”


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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    It certainly seems like Arizona incentivized the possibility.

    “We know you have to cheat to succeed. We will pay you out if you get busted.”


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    No school would ever propose that idea. Not in a million years. But they might acquiesce to it if Miller's agent proposed it. That way, you've got plausible deniability from the school and the HC.

    Either way, anyone in Arizona's athletic department who signed off on this should be fired.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    No school would ever propose that idea. Not in a million years. But they might acquiesce to it if Miller's agent proposed it. That way, you've got plausible deniability from the school and the HC.

    Either way, anyone in Arizona's athletic department who signed off on this should be fired.
    Just fire him for convenience instead of cause. Problem solved.

  6. #156
    Yeah this is a pretty easy solution if the payout for firing with cause is larger... just let him go citing no reason and a desire to go another direction.

    Of course attempting to prove there was cause would also likely be an admission of guilt.


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  7. #157
    If you want to believe the Zona spin machine...

    https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basket...turn-espn-fake


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  8. #158
    And for more on Kuzma and Dawkins

    https://sports.yahoo.com/meet-christ...213959726.html


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  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    And for more on Kuzma and Dawkins

    https://sports.yahoo.com/meet-christ...213959726.html


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    Dawkins might be the guy who asked the coaches for 50k for Kuzma that was referenced by Krysto 6 months or so back.

  10. #160
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    pretty good read on why Sean Miller hasn't been fired yet or even placed on administrative leave

    https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/27/...ts-sean-miller

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    pretty good read on why Sean Miller hasn't been fired yet or even placed on administrative leave

    https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/27/...ts-sean-miller

    Greg Hansen Az beat reporter for somebody was on yesterday with Checketts and Monson. The 100k payment was not for Ayton. It was for the same kid that Louisville ultimately got--Bowen.

    And he claims that it is false that Miller gets more if he is fired for cause.

    Hansen appears to know more than most. He still thinks Miller is going to get shit canned and the lawyers are just working out the details.

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    Greg Hansen Az beat reporter for somebody was on yesterday with Checketts and Monson. The 100k payment was not for Ayton. It was for the same kid that Louisville ultimately got--Bowen.

    And he claims that it is false that Miller gets more if he is fired for cause.

    Hansen appears to know more than most. He still thinks Miller is going to get shit canned and the lawyers are just working out the details.
    That would explain why Miller did not get charged criminally--no money changed hands b/c Bowen went to Louisville. (And Ayton has been adamant that he did not receive any.)

    I also read an article yesterday that even if Arizona had paid Ayton or Bowen, it is not a crime. It violates NCAA rules, but not the criminal law. I have no idea if that is true or not, but the article said the assistants got charged because they committed a bribe by taking money for themselves.

  13. #163
    So, what are the changes that can be made to the current system to financially help the student-athlete without turning it into a total pay for play system? Here are a few that I am fine with.

    One change that has occurred was providing student athletes with the true cost of education scholarship which provides them with about $500 per month.

    Eliminate the one and done rule and adopt the NFL rule. This would require the NBA to change its rule back to accepting kids out of HS. I'm fine with that.

    Student-athletes at a school who graduate collectively receive 50% of the revenue generated by jersey sales. I don't think they should get 100% because a lot of the purchase is based on the school identity and not the individual. I have never purchased a jersey for myself or any of my children. They have plenty of Utah logo gear.

    Individual student-athletes can have endorsement deals and appearance fees. All contracts need to be in writing and approved by a schools compliance office.

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    So, what are the changes that can be made to the current system to financially help the student-athlete without turning it into a total pay for play system? Here are a few that I am fine with.

    One change that has occurred was providing student athletes with the true cost of education scholarship which provides them with about $500 per month.

    Eliminate the one and done rule and adopt the NFL rule. This would require the NBA to change its rule back to accepting kids out of HS. I'm fine with that.

    Student-athletes at a school who graduate collectively receive 50% of the revenue generated by jersey sales. I don't think they should get 100% because a lot of the purchase is based on the school identity and not the individual. I have never purchased a jersey for myself or any of my children. They have plenty of Utah logo gear.

    Individual student-athletes can have endorsement deals and appearance fees. All contracts need to be in writing and approved by a schools compliance office.
    Apparently the Condi Rice task force is going to recommend some of these changes. Another possible change is allowing students to have agents while in college, which apparently some other sports allow. This would push the bribes well down the line into high school and jr high, most likely.

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    So, what are the changes that can be made to the current system to financially help the student-athlete without turning it into a total pay for play system? Here are a few that I am fine with.

    One change that has occurred was providing student athletes with the true cost of education scholarship which provides them with about $500 per month.

    Eliminate the one and done rule and adopt the NFL rule. This would require the NBA to change its rule back to accepting kids out of HS. I'm fine with that.

    Student-athletes at a school who graduate collectively receive 50% of the revenue generated by jersey sales. I don't think they should get 100% because a lot of the purchase is based on the school identity and not the individual. I have never purchased a jersey for myself or any of my children. They have plenty of Utah logo gear.

    Individual student-athletes can have endorsement deals and appearance fees. All contracts need to be in writing and approved by a schools compliance office.
    I have a hard time with anything that further exacerbated the competitive imbalance. If players are going to get paid, it should all be the same (or at least have the same cap for all players). If compensation is tied directly to merchandise sales or appearance fees, for example, that would be a HUGE benefit for the bigger schools.

  16. #166
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    FBI and DOJ Announce Corruption Charges in College Basketball

    Paying these athletes is not going to make the problem go away. Why would it? As long as there are shoe companies and others that want something from them and are willing to pay for it, the companies will be able to tempt to them with money, no matter how much the university is paying the athletes to cover expenses.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Paying these athletes is not going to make the problem go away. Why would it? As long as there are shoe companies and others that want something from them and are willing to pay for it, the companies will be able to tempt to them with money, no matter how much the university is paying the athletes to cover expenses.
    The media keep trying to tell me that we can keep the NCAA from turning into a farm system by turning it into a minor league instead.

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    The media keep trying to tell me that we can keep the NCAA from turning into a farm system by turning it into a minor league instead.
    I will have no interest if it becomes a minor league like AAA baseball and the D-League. I went to exactly 1 AAA baseball game last year and no D-League games.

  19. #169
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I will have no interest if it becomes a minor league like AAA baseball and the D-League. I went to exactly 1 AAA baseball game last year and no D-League games.
    Interesting question: If kids coming out of high School who can play in the NBA (the one and dones) start doing that, just like baseball players now do, will college basketball be ruined? I don’t really know. That might well be the case.

    Is the answer to apply a rule like the NFL’s or MLB’s, requiring kids who start college to use 2-3 years of eligibility before declaring for the draft? I don’t know but I do think the one and done phenomenon has really changed college hoops, and not for the better.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Interesting question: If kids coming out of high School who can play in the NBA (the one and dones) start doing that, just like baseball players now do, will college basketball be ruined? I don’t really know. That might well be the case.

    Is the answer to apply a rule like the NFL’s or MLB’s, requiring kids who start college to use 2-3 years of eligibility before declaring for the draft? I don’t know but I do think the one and done phenomenon has really changed college hoops, and not for the better.
    The 'one and done' rule was created by the NBA in order to protect GM's from their own stupidity under the guise of protecting the kids who would get drafted and then wash out with no college option to fall back on. The more I think about it, the more I like the ability to leave school at any time or bypass it completely. You have players who are ready or think they are ready right out of high school. Then you have guys like Carmelo who aren't quite sure but have a dynamic freshman season and decide that they are ready then. I think College basketball would be just fine if we went back to this.

  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    I think College basketball would be just fine if we went back to this.
    Sure. The problem is that it's not college basketball's decision to make. The NBA seems happy with their rule. I'm not sure they have any reason to change it.

  22. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Sure. The problem is that it's not college basketball's decision to make. The NBA seems happy with their rule. I'm not sure they have any reason to change it.
    Its not the NBA's decision to make; its the players union. The NBA has tried to have a rule like the NFL's or MLB's; the union rejects it. Frankly, I dont understand why; each kid who has to attend college opens up a roster spot for a veteran. But they dont see it that way.

  23. #173
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Its not the NBA's decision to make; its the players union. The NBA has tried to have a rule like the NFL's or MLB's; the union rejects it. Frankly, I dont understand why; each kid who has to attend college opens up a roster spot for a veteran. But they dont see it that way.
    If you look at players’ association role as maximizing their members’ income, it makes sense. But I wonder about how they were ever given that power. Somebody screwed up at the negotiating table.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    If you look at players’ association role as maximizing their members’ income, it makes sense. But I wonder about how they were ever given that power. Somebody screwed up at the negotiating table.
    The players union is run almost entirely by black people. So to say the one and done rule is a racist policy is kind of ironic.

    And, I'm loving watching all these white NBA coaches who have made millions and millions for decades and decades off the backs of black players (who play, on average, 4 years) fall all over themselves about how racist this and that and everything else is.

  25. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    If you look at players’ association role as maximizing their members’ income, it makes sense. But I wonder about how they were ever given that power. Somebody screwed up at the negotiating table.
    It maximizes the income of certain members (who get drafted early on) over their lifetime, but it doesn't maximize income of the players collectively, except maybe at the margins, since teams have a salary minimum and a salary cap. It just determines which players get paid. There may be an argument that since young players are on a rookie scale, and veterans make more than that generally, then having more veterans and fewer rookies may result in the players making more on the whole. But I get that early draftees can get to their second and third contracts earlier, and potentially have more years of maximum earnings.

  26. #176
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Nate Robinson offered $100k to return to football by a UW booster after he moved to play basketball.

    https://www.si.com/college-football/...-booster-money

  27. #177
    One issue that might come into play is the same thing that brought down Al Capone---failure to pay income taxes.

    hard to believe someone reported the $100,000 that Sean Miller was paying to ?? as income.

  28. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Standing ute View Post
    One issue that might come into play is the same thing that brought down Al Capone---failure to pay income taxes.

    hard to believe someone reported the $100,000 that Sean Miller was paying to ?? as income.
    The latest scuttlebutt I heard about Miller and Ayton was that Miller's recorded conversation was not about Ayton at all, but about another recruit that ended up going to Kansas Louisville (Thanks TwoUtes). This is why Ayton's people have been denying everything, and there is no actual money to follow. The $100K didn't end up getting paid, because the recruit didn't end up coming to Arizona.

    Part of the problem is that everything being reported about the taped conversation is 3rd hand, and those reporting have never heard the recordings. The information may be coming from a source that may have some self-servicing motivation in releasing the information. The theory put forth was that it was from the defense team of Dawkins or Booker.

    It's still probably enough to bring down Miller from an NCAA and PR perspective, but might explain why he is not in trouble with the law.
    Last edited by chrisrenrut; 02-28-2018 at 12:38 PM.
    The future of the past is now!

  29. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    The latest scuttlebutt I heard about Miller and Ayton was that Miller's recorded conversation was not about Ayton at all, but about another recruit that ended up going to Kansas (IIRC). This is why Ayton's people have been denying everything, and there is no actual money to follow. The $100K didn't end up getting paid, because the recruit didn't end up coming to Arizona.

    Part of the problem is that everything being reported about the taped conversation is 3rd hand, and those reporting have never heard the recordings. The information may be coming from a source that may have some self-servicing motivation in releasing the information. The theory put forth was that it was from the defense team of Dawkins or Booker.
    it's Bowen, the kid who ended up at Louisville.

  30. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    it's Bowen, the kid who ended up at Louisville.
    As you said the other day:

    http://arizonasports.com/story/14433...n-brian-bowen/

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