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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

  1. #1411
    With the GOP wipeout in California, might a rebuilt Golden State Republican party help lead the GOP out of the toxicity of Trump-style Republicanism?

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ebacle-1000481

    The Democratic hegemony in California will inevitably weaken as politics can't solve all problems for everyone, and the GOP will get a shot to get back into the picture.

    Or does this move us closer to the nation pulling apart, the creation of Pacifica?

    My preferences is Mitt Romney and others (Mueller?) help repudiate Trumpism and get us back to arguing policy.

  2. #1412
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    With the GOP wipeout in California, might a rebuilt Golden State Republican party help lead the GOP out of the toxicity of Trump-style Republicanism?

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ebacle-1000481

    The Democratic hegemony in California will inevitably weaken as politics can't solve all problems for everyone, and the GOP will get a shot to get back into the picture.

    Or does this move us closer to the nation pulling apart, the creation of Pacifica?

    My preferences is Mitt Romney and others (Mueller?) help repudiate Trumpism and get us back to arguing policy.
    It’s a registration/demographic shift. It’s not that Republicans are doing things wrong, it’s that they’d have to stop being recognizable as even moderate Republicans to get elected. It’s Utah in reverse. And one result of that is that districts are gerrymandered even worse in CA than in Utah. (I supported Prop 4 in the latest Utah election. People should have a voice in their government.)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #1413
    So Trump visits the Camp fire area in California and clearly has no clue what is happening and why. He added that he was surprised to see images of firefighters removing dried brush near a fire. "This should have been all raked out."

    Are you kidding me. Over 140,000 acres should be raked out. We were just up in the Napa area and the grass is dead and the trees are dying due to lack of water. Who is going to rake it out? Trump is simply an idiot.

  4. #1414
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    With the GOP wipeout in California, might a rebuilt Golden State Republican party help lead the GOP out of the toxicity of Trump-style Republicanism?
    This seemed pretty accurate:

    “There is no message. There is no messenger. There is no money. And there is no infrastructure.”

  5. #1415
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    So Trump visits the Camp fire area in California and clearly has no clue what is happening and why. He added that he was surprised to see images of firefighters removing dried brush near a fire. "This should have been all raked out."

    Are you kidding me. Over 140,000 acres should be raked out. We were just up in the Napa area and the grass is dead and the trees are dying due to lack of water. Who is going to rake it out? Trump is simply an idiot.

  6. #1416
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Jim Treacher:

    In six short years, [Democrats have] all gone from “Hurr hurr, Romney is stuck in ’80s” to “OMG, my phone charger is missing, Putin stole it!” It’s just odd to me that they think Obama took care of this guy, and yet he stole an election right from under Obama’s nose.

    Doublethink is your best entertainment value.
    Good point.

    https://pjmedia.com/trending/vladimi...his-blog-post/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #1417
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Trump’s claim of poor California forest management rings true — to a degree

    “A century of mismanaging Sierra Nevada forests has brought an unprecedented environmental catastrophe that impacts all Californians.” That’s not a tweet from President Trump, but the opening line of a February report by California’s Little Hoover Commission investigating fire danger in the state.

    “The immediate crisis is visible to anyone who has traveled recently in the Sierra Nevada, especially in its southern range where mountainsides are brown with dying and dead forests,” Commission Chairman Pedro Nava wrote in the cover letter for “Fire on the Mountain,” an 82-page report on the tinderbox nature of the state’s forests....
    https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...t-13400503.php

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #1418
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Cards Against Humanity bought a chunk of land adjacent to where the infamous wall would go, and then anyone who donated $15 was deeded a chunk of the land making eminent domain claims excruciatingly time consuming.

    https://www.wkrn.com/news/cards-agai...all/1605903901

    https://cardsagainsthumanitystopsthewall.com/

  9. #1419
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    Cards Against Humanity bought a chunk of land adjacent to where the infamous wall would go, and then anyone who donated $15 was deeded a chunk of the land making eminent domain claims excruciatingly time consuming.

    https://www.wkrn.com/news/cards-agai...all/1605903901

    https://cardsagainsthumanitystopsthewall.com/
    Super funny until we realize politicians don’t care about spending money, and it just means less services for more important areas.

  10. #1420
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    He got elected. We can’t pretend otherwise. As for the GOP’s “soul,” applying collective responsibility is as unfair and illogical as it always has been.
    Have you read Bob Woodward's latest book? I stand by my first sentence. As for the second, it is not applied to every Republican -- that would be the fallacy of composition (or division, I have trouble keeping those straight) -- but rather to those who embraced him so quickly and happily.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  11. #1421
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It’s a registration/demographic shift. It’s not that Republicans are doing things wrong, it’s that they’d have to stop being recognizable as even moderate Republicans to get elected. It’s Utah in reverse. And one result of that is that districts are gerrymandered even worse in CA than in Utah. (I supported Prop 4 in the latest Utah election. People should have a voice in their government.)
    I rarely step into this forum. But this is patently false. It's a lie so big, not even Trump has tried spreading it.

  12. #1422
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I rarely step into this forum. But this is patently false. It's a lie so big, not even Trump has tried spreading it.
    I may be wrong but it’s no lie. It’s based on what I’ve seen while living there for the last 36+ years, having followed districting closely because of my work. Tell me where I’m wrong.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 11-21-2018 at 08:34 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #1423
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I may be wrong but it’s no lie. It’s based on what I’ve seen while living there for the last 36+ years, having followed districting closely because of my work. Tell me where I’m wrong.
    I don't know whether it is true or not. I guess I would ask whether there is a Republican stronghold similar in size to SLC that is divided into 3 separate house districts in order to dilute the Republican stronghold.

  14. #1424
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I don't know whether it is true or not. I guess I would ask whether there is a Republican stronghold similar in size to SLC that is divided into 3 separate house districts in order to dilute the Republican stronghold.
    It’s pretty widely known that the Dems in CA were in a position to obliterate the GOP after the 2010 census. The two parties made a deal: The redistricting would create a permanent Democratic majority but there would be.a few safe Republican districts. Now, in our state legislature, the only question is whether the Democrats will have a super-majority that enables them to pass tax increases without any opposition party votes. (They have that now.)

    One result of this is a deeply divided legislature. All any candidate must do is get their party’s nomination. Voters in primaries are always more extreme than general election voters. Thus we now have a legislature composed of a permanent minority of very conservative Republicans and a permanent majority of very liberal Democrats. They can’t agree on anything and the very liberal Democrats can do whatever they want. I haven’t followed Utah politics closely for many years but it seems like the situation there is kind of the reverse of California’s.

    That’s why I supported Prop 4 in the most recent election. I don’t like it when people lack a voice in their government.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #1425
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It’s pretty widely known that the Dems in CA were in a position to obliterate the GOP after the 2010 census. The two parties made a deal: The redistricting would create a permanent Democratic majority but there would be.a few safe Republican districts. Now, in our state legislature, the only question is whether the Democrats will have a super-majority that enables them to pass tax increases without any opposition party votes. (They have that now.)

    One result of this is a deeply divided legislature. All any candidate must do is get their party’s nomination. Voters in primaries are always more extreme than general election voters. Thus we now have a legislature composed of a permanent minority of very conservative Republicans and a permanent majority of very liberal Democrats. They can’t agree on anything and the very liberal Democrats can do whatever they want. I haven’t followed Utah politics closely for many years but it seems like the situation there is kind of the reverse of California’s.

    That’s why I supported Prop 4 in the most recent election. I don’t like it when people lack a voice in their government.
    In Utah we've seen the insularity of the Legislature result in not just opposition to Democrats (who aren't seriously considered) but opposition to the Governor and repeated willingness to defy public polling on issues, such as the prison move (so real estate developers can make a mint on the land where the current prison is).

    Now that Mia Love lost, and voters approved multiple initiatives (which are very tough to get on the ballot), it will be interesting to see if the Utah GOP insularity is affected. Utah is getting more diverse, younger voters reject orthodox positions, women are finding power.

    Regarding districting creating "safe" districts to ensure roughly representative numbers in the Legislature / Assembly / Congress and the ensuing extremes that leads to no cooperation, I hope the nation is getting tired of endless strife.

    The Founders taught us that compromise is an essential value. The Constitution, even the 3/5 compromise, were impressive displays of the power of compromise, but the Civil War ensued less than 80 years later.

    The big question is whether we're smart enough now to mitigate strife leading to political violence and perhaps even another Civil War, or if we can find leadership who will seriously extend an open hand across the aisle, looking for enough unity to head off far worse hostilities.

  16. #1426
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    In Utah we've seen the insularity of the Legislature result in not just opposition to Democrats (who aren't seriously considered) but opposition to the Governor and repeated willingness to defy public polling on issues, such as the prison move (so real estate developers can make a mint on the land where the current prison is).

    Now that Mia Love lost, and voters approved multiple initiatives (which are very tough to get on the ballot), it will be interesting to see if the Utah GOP insularity is affected. Utah is getting more diverse, younger voters reject orthodox positions, women are finding power.

    Regarding districting creating "safe" districts to ensure roughly representative numbers in the Legislature / Assembly / Congress and the ensuing extremes that leads to no cooperation, I hope the nation is getting tired of endless strife.

    The Founders taught us that compromise is an essential value. The Constitution, even the 3/5 compromise, were impressive displays of the power of compromise, but the Civil War ensued less than 80 years later.

    The big question is whether we're smart enough now to mitigate strife leading to political violence and perhaps even another Civil War, or if we can find leadership who will seriously extend an open hand across the aisle, looking for enough unity to head off far worse hostilities.
    Not to get off on a tangent here but I actually think it was the right thing to do to move the prison despite public polling (which is why we have elected representatives in the first place). Yes the land the prison occupies is valuable, but that whole area will be key to the economic development of SL and Utah County and the state as a whole. Work as of late has taken me back and forth to Utah County and that whole corridor is exploding with tech businesses and I can honestly seeing it being more of a commercial hub than downtown SLC in the next 20-30 years. Having a prison in the middle of that makes zero sense and would just get more costly to displace in the future.

    A friend and neighbor was heavily involved in that process as a representative of the prison system. The current prison is woefully out of date and frankly quite cruel to prisoners under current standards. To fix or retrofit in place would have been incredibly costly and it is just a matter of time before serious criticisms and issues would be leveled at the local prison system.

    I was an opponent to the light rail system at the time, and so was much of the public. However, fortunately some foresight had the lawmakers push ahead and I think we are all glad for the mass commuting infrastructure we have in place now... in fact it is arguable it is far too little. But massive congestion on I-15 at 3pm most weekdays now indicates that we need to be thinking of the future, and I think the prison decision was no different.

    This is the last time you'll likely here me say the clowns who run the state legislature got something right, and I agree with the essence of what you posted, just my 2 cents on the prison move.

  17. #1427
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Not to get off on a tangent here but I actually think it was the right thing to do to move the prison despite public polling (which is why we have elected representatives in the first place). Yes the land the prison occupies is valuable, but that whole area will be key to the economic development of SL and Utah County and the state as a whole. Work as of late has taken me back and forth to Utah County and that whole corridor is exploding with tech businesses and I can honestly seeing it being more of a commercial hub than downtown SLC in the next 20-30 years. Having a prison in the middle of that makes zero sense and would just get more costly to displace in the future.

    A friend and neighbor was heavily involved in that process as a representative of the prison system. The current prison is woefully out of date and frankly quite cruel to prisoners under current standards. To fix or retrofit in place would have been incredibly costly and it is just a matter of time before serious criticisms and issues would be leveled at the local prison system.

    I was an opponent to the light rail system at the time, and so was much of the public. However, fortunately some foresight had the lawmakers push ahead and I think we are all glad for the mass commuting infrastructure we have in place now... in fact it is arguable it is far too little. But massive congestion on I-15 at 3pm most weekdays now indicates that we need to be thinking of the future, and I think the prison decision was no different.

    This is the last time you'll likely here me say the clowns who run the state legislature got something right, and I agree with the essence of what you posted, just my 2 cents on the prison move.
    I think you are right about the economic value of moving the prison to another location. My main problem with the way it was done is that those who will benefit economically from the move are being subsidized by the taxpayers who in my opinion are not getting fair compensation for the value of the land and who will be paying the tab for the new prison.

  18. #1428
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I think you are right about the economic value of moving the prison to another location. My main problem with the way it was done is that those who will benefit economically from the move are being subsidized by the taxpayers who in my opinion are not getting fair compensation for the value of the land and who will be paying the tab for the new prison.
    Yeah, necessary or not, it's rotten. I care more about fairness in this case than about establishing a tech corridor. I am biased though - I don't like Utah county.

  19. #1429
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I may be wrong but it’s no lie. It’s based on what I’ve seen while living there for the last 36+ years, having followed districting closely because of my work. Tell me where I’m wrong.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califo...ing_Commission

  20. #1430
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Wow, that Wikipedia post makes it seem like everything is sunshine and puppies in CA. The redistricting commission was created by ballot initiative in 2010 to correct outrageous gerrymandering in the state. It was a lot like Prop 4 in Utah, which just passed in response to the same problem, which I think was even worse in Utah. The fact is that there is a permanent Democratic majority in the California Legislature and that not a single statewide office is held by a Republican. That's the way in which CA is the reverse image of Utah.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #1431
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Wow, that Wikipedia post makes it seem like everything is sunshine and puppies in CA. The redistricting commission was created by ballot initiative in 2010 to correct outrageous gerrymandering in the state. It was a lot like Prop 4 in Utah, which just passed in response to the same problem, which I think was even worse in Utah. The fact is that there is a permanent Democratic majority in the California Legislature and that not a single statewide office is held by a Republican. That's the way in which CA is the reverse image of Utah.
    I'll admit, that wikipedia entry read like an entry created by the CA Redistricting Commission themselves. I have no dog in this fight, just saying.

    Also, virtually everyone I know who lives in CA wants to get out of CA. Park City is a major benefactor of that current flight.

  22. #1432
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Also, virtually everyone I know who lives in CA wants to get out of CA.
    That is tragic. California is the closest thing to paradise in the continental US. Maybe the world.

  23. #1433
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I'll admit, that wikipedia entry read like an entry created by the CA Redistricting Commission themselves. I have no dog in this fight, just saying.

    Also, virtually everyone I know who lives in CA wants to get out of CA. Park City is a major benefactor of that current flight.
    Didnt Yogi Berra say that? Nobody lives there any more-- its too crowded?

  24. #1434
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Make no mistake, my wife and I love California and will go there as often as we can. We just don’t want to retire there.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #1435
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    That is tragic. California is the closest thing to paradise in the continental US. Maybe the world.
    I agree (although I might say just coastal Cali) but I think it is one of those places that is great to visit... not to live for a variety of reasons.

  26. #1436
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post

    Also, virtually everyone I know who lives in CA wants to get out of CA. Park City is a major benefactor of that current flight.
    My wife and I just bought a place in San Diego and we split time between Park City and San Diego. My daughter and her husband and his two brothers all moved from Utah back to California in the past several years. They are all self-employed and can pretty much live where they want. The same has been true for several of my son-in-law's friends who were raised in California. While I know we are in the minority, I believe that the majority of those leaving California are those who are retiring and looking for a place where they can get more bang for their buck, which is pretty much everywhere. My other daughter's in-laws, who lived in the East Bay their entire lives moved to Springville a couple of years ago when they retired. While the wife loves it because she is close to grandkids, he hates it and wants to move back.

  27. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I don't know whether it is true or not. I guess I would ask whether there is a Republican stronghold similar in size to SLC that is divided into 3 separate house districts in order to dilute the Republican stronghold.
    It really depends on what definition you use for "gerrymandered".

    Goofy looking districts? Competitive races?

    Is there really a way to measure it?

    FiveThirtyEight did a nice series on gerrymandering this summer where they looked into these ideas. You should listen to it. I think you may come away with a different perspective on how California is split up.

    EDIT: Oops. That was meant to be for LA Ute.

  28. #1438
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    It really depends on what definition you use for "gerrymandered".

    Goofy looking districts? Competitive races?

    Is there really a way to measure it?

    FiveThirtyEight did a nice series on gerrymandering this summer where they looked into these ideas. You should listen to it. I think you may come away with a different perspective on how California is split up.

    EDIT: Oops. That was meant to be for LA Ute.
    The problem is demographic voter registration, frankly. There are many more Democrats than Republicans. That’s all there is to it. When people here brag about how competitive districts are, they’re smoking something. That’s why I’m sympathetic to Utah Democrats. It’s no fun to have no one to vote for that you truly support. (If you’re outside McAdams’ districts. And even if you’re there you have only a conservative Democrat to vote for.) I feel your pain, as a famous Dem once said.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #1439
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The problem is demographic voter registration, frankly. There are many more Democrats than Republicans. That’s all there is to it. When people here brag about how competitive districts are, they’re smoking something. That’s why I’m sympathetic to Utah Democrats. It’s no fun to have no one to vote for that you truly support. (If you’re outside McAdams’ districts. And even if you’re there you have only a conservative Democrat to vote for.) I feel your pain, as a famous Dem once said.

    The funny thing is, SL county dominates McAdams district. the sliver of utah county doesnt want to be part of it, nor does Juab or Sanpete. they want to be part of a more rural, conservative district where the representative will listen to them. I poll watched on election day for McAdams in Midvale. I got a text asking about turnout, and I reported that a lot of people who showed up to vote looked like refugees from a Grateful Dead concert. No question Prop 2 and same day registration pulled him over the fnish line.

    the only reason that district is drawn as it is, is to keep a seat out of the Dems hands. Next time around, they could move the boundaries 5 blocks in one direction and 4 blocks in another to make it very very difficult for McAdams to win. But the smaller counties would like to be out of the district altogether.

    The real problem with gerrymandering is the problem in Ohio and Wisconsin (and NC too, I think), where democrats win 55% of the vote for the state legislatures, but win only 33% of the seats.

  30. #1440
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    I think we should use this as a way of measuring "how gerrymandered" a district is.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/1185...gerrymandering

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