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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

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  1. #1
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    I’ve read only a little of Peterson’s work so don’t have an opinion about him yet. But this is interesting food for thought — especially the final paragraph quotes in this excerpt:

    Why the Left is So Afraid of Jordan Peterson

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...terson/567110/

    There are many legitimate reasons to disagree with him on a number of subjects, and many people of good will do. But there is no coherent reason for the left’s obliterating and irrational hatred of Jordan Peterson. What, then, accounts for it?

    It is because the left, while it currently seems ascendant in our houses of culture and art, has in fact entered its decadent late phase, and it is deeply vulnerable. The left is afraid not of Peterson, but of the ideas he promotes, which are completely inconsistent with identity politics of any kind. When the poetry editors of The Nation virtuously publish an amateurish but super-woke poem, only to discover that the poem stumbled across several trip wires of political correctness; when these editors (one of them a full professor in the Harvard English department) then jointly write a letter oozing bathos and career anxiety and begging forgiveness from their critics; when the poet himself publishes a statement of his own—a missive falling somewhere between an apology, a Hail Mary pass, and a suicide note; and when all of this is accepted in the houses of the holy as one of the regrettable but minor incidents that take place along the path toward greater justice, something is dying.

    When the top man at The New York Times publishes a sober statement about a meeting he had with the president in which he describes instructing Trump about the problem of his “deeply troubling anti-press rhetoric,” and then three days later the paper announces that it has hired a writer who has tweeted about her hatred of white people, of Republicans, of cops, of the president, of the need to stop certain female writers and journalists from “existing,” and when this new hire will not be a beat reporter, but will sit on the paper’s editorial board—having a hand in shaping the opinions the paper presents to the world—then it is no mystery that a parallel culture of ideas has emerged to replace a corrupted system. When even Barack Obama, the poet laureate of identity politics, is moved to issue a message to the faithful, hinting that that they could be tipping their hand on all of this—saying during a speech he delivered in South Africa that a culture is at a dead end when it decides someone has no “standing to speak” if he is a white man—and when even this mayday is ignored, the doomsday clock ticks ever closer to the end....

    If you think that a backlash to the kind of philosophy that resulted in The Nation’s poetry implosion; the Times’ hire; and Obama’s distress call isn’t at least partly responsible for the election of Donald Trump, you’re dreaming. And if you think the only kind of people who would reject such madness are Republicans, you are similarly deluded. All across the country, there are people as repelled by the current White House as they are by the countless and increasingly baroque expressions of identity politics that dominate so much of the culture. These are people who aren’t looking for an ideology; they are looking for ideas. And many of them are getting much better at discerning the good from the bad. The Democratic Party reviles them at its peril; the Republican Party takes them for granted in folly.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-10-2018 at 05:05 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #2
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    I have no idea who Jordan Peterson is. I have a hard time believing anyone in Canada is worth being afraid of.

  3. #3
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This reminds me of the Cold War. I wonder what cyber-tactics we are using on the Russians. Microsoft said it successfully thwarted an operation tied to RUSSIAN military intelligence that targeted conservative think tanks and the U.S. Senate:

    The company said it executed a court order giving it control of six websites created by a group known as Fancy Bear. The group was behind the 2016 hack of the Democratic National Committee and directed by the GRU, the Russian military intelligence unit, according to cybersecurity firms.

    The websites could have been used to launch cyberattacks on candidates and other political groups ahead of November's elections, the company said.

    The RUSSIAN targets included the Hudson Institute and the International Republican Institute.

    Microsoft said the domains were "associated with the Russian government and known as Strontium, or alternatively Fancy Bear or APT28." The company said it has no evidence that the domains were used in successful attacks but that it was working with the potential target organizations.

    Hackers could have used the domains to send emails to Senate staffers or people working for the Hudson Institute or the International Republican Institute in an attempt to trick them into handing over information, like their passwords.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #4
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I’ve read only a little of Peterson’s work so don’t have an opinion about him yet. But this is interesting food for thought — especially he final paragraph here:

    Why the Left is So Afraid of Jordan Peterson

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...terson/567110/
    It is interesting that the author is writing a story about the impact of a guy who is critical of "identity politics" by engaging in identity politics.

  6. #6
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    It is interesting that the author is writing a story about the impact of a guy who is critical of "identity politics" by engaging in identity politics.
    I think you’re missing the writer’s point. She’s critical of Peterson but is interested in his popularity as a phenomenon and as a reaction to what both Republicans and Democrats have become.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-10-2018 at 05:10 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #7
    Here are Jordan Peterson's 12 rules. This looks much more like trendy psycho-babble than something that will up end the political structure. (Besides, isn't the push for religious freedom itself a kind of identity politics? Or MAGA? Or states rights? Etc)

    Peterson's 12 rules


    Rule 1 Stand up straight with your shoulders back
    Rule 2 Treat yourself like you would someone you are responsible for helping
    Rule 3 Make friends with people who want the best for you
    Rule 4 Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today
    Rule 5 Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
    Rule 6 Set your house in perfect order before you criticise the world
    Rule 7 Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
    Rule 8 Tell the truth – or, at least, don’t lie
    Rule 9 Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don’t
    Rule 10 Be precise in your speech
    Rule 11 Do not bother children when they are skate-boarding
    Rule 12 Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street

  8. #8
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Here are Jordan Peterson's 12 rules. This looks much more like trendy psycho-babble than something that will up end the political structure. (Besides, isn't the push for religious freedom itself a kind of identity politics? Or MAGA? Or states rights? Etc)

    Peterson's 12 rules


    Rule 1 Stand up straight with your shoulders back
    Rule 2 Treat yourself like you would someone you are responsible for helping
    Rule 3 Make friends with people who want the best for you
    Rule 4 Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today
    Rule 5 Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
    Rule 6 Set your house in perfect order before you criticise the world
    Rule 7 Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
    Rule 8 Tell the truth – or, at least, don’t lie
    Rule 9 Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don’t
    Rule 10 Be precise in your speech
    Rule 11 Do not bother children when they are skate-boarding
    Rule 12 Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street
    Well, now…. In fairness to this guy, I bought his book on Kindle and have read a chapter. Those simple-sounding titles/principles are intended to catch the reader‘s attention. He explores them in a pretty thoughtful way.


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Well, now…. In fairness to this guy, I bought his book on Kindle and have read a chapter. Those simple-sounding titles/principles are intended to catch the reader‘s attention. He explores them in a pretty thoughtful way.
    Well, he has a hit, not that it's much different than any other self-help book out there. You and/or I could write a pretty good book on the topic.

    Another Atlantic article asserts a man's desirability peak on dating sites is about age 50, whereas for women the peak is 18 years old, and declines from there. (The Kingstons should like that article, lol.)

    It's better ready than Alex Jones or the Weekly World News, granted.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Well, he has a hit, not that it's much different than any other self-help book out there. You and/or I could write a pretty good book on the topic.

    Another Atlantic article asserts a man's desirability peak on dating sites is about age 50, whereas for women the peak is 18 years old, and declines from there. (The Kingstons should like that article, lol.)

    It's better ready than Alex Jones or the Weekly World News, granted.
    I'm not Peterson fan, but also not a hater—I'm indifferent. Your dismissiveness, found in your last sentence is just silly, considering how popular he is at the moment, and how seriously he takes his very legitimate point of view—not to mention how articulate he is. It's almost as silly as the linked interview below ... watch the whole thing. Kathy Newman makes an absolute fool of herself:

    Last edited by tooblue; 08-13-2018 at 06:44 AM.

  11. #11
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Well, he has a hit, not that it's much different than any other self-help book out there. You and/or I could write a pretty good book on the topic.

    Another Atlantic article asserts a man's desirability peak on dating sites is about age 50, whereas for women the peak is 18 years old, and declines from there. (The Kingstons should like that article, lol.)

    It's better ready than Alex Jones or the Weekly World News, granted.
    What interested me about the Atlantic article on Peterson wasn't Jordan Peterson's ideas. It was the writer's point that already-weak political parties are losing ground to personalities, and the parties don't seem to see that:

    When the top man at The New York Times publishes a sober statement about a meeting he had with the president in which he describes instructing Trump about the problem of his “deeply troubling anti-press rhetoric,” and then three days later the paper announces that it has hired a writer who has tweeted about her hatred of white people, of Republicans, of cops, of the president, of the need to stop certain female writers and journalists from “existing,” and when this new hire will not be a beat reporter, but will sit on the paper’s editorial board—having a hand in shaping the opinions the paper presents to the world—then it is no mystery that a parallel culture of ideas has emerged to replace a corrupted system. When even Barack Obama, the poet laureate of identity politics, is moved to issue a message to the faithful, hinting that that they could be tipping their hand on all of this—saying during a speech he delivered in South Africa that a culture is at a dead end when it decides someone has no “standing to speak” if he is a white man—and when even this mayday is ignored, the doomsday clock ticks ever closer to the end.

    In the midst of this death rattle has come a group of thinkers, Peterson foremost among them, offering an alternative means of understanding the world to a very large group of people who have been starved for one. His audience is huge and ever more diverse, but a significant number of his fans are white men. The automatic assumption of the left is that this is therefore a red-pilled army, but the opposite is true. The alt-right venerates identity politics just as fervently as the left, as the title of a recent essay reproduced on the alt-right website Counter-Currents reveals: “Jordan Peterson’s Rejection of Identity Politics Allows White Ethnocide.”

    If you think that a backlash to the kind of philosophy that resulted in The Nation’s poetry implosion; the Times’ hire; and Obama’s distress call isn’t at least partly responsible for the election of Donald Trump, you’re dreaming. And if you think the only kind of people who would reject such madness are Republicans, you are similarly deluded. All across the country, there are people as repelled by the current White House as they are by the countless and increasingly baroque expressions of identity politics that dominate so much of the culture. These are people who aren’t looking for an ideology; they are looking for ideas. And many of them are getting much better at discerning the good from the bad. The Democratic Party reviles them at its peril; the Republican Party takes them for granted in folly.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/why-the-left-is-so-afraid-of-jordan-peterson/567110/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #12
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    What Was Bruce Ohr Doing?

    Justice releases some damning documents, but much of the truth is still classified.

    ByKimberley A. Strassel


    The Federal Bureau of Investigation and Justice Department have continued to insist they did nothing wrong in their Trump-Russia investigation. This week should finally bring an end to that claim, given the clear evidence of malfeasance via the use of Bruce Ohr.

    Mr. Ohr was until last year associate deputy attorney general. He began feeding information to the FBI from dossier author Christopher Steele in late 2016—after the FBI had terminated Mr. Steele as a confidential informant for violating the bureau’s rules. He also collected dirt from Glenn Simpson, cofounder of Fusion GPS, the opposition-research firm that worked for Hillary Clinton’s campaign and employed Mr. Steele. Altogether, the FBI pumped Mr. Ohr for information at least a dozen times, debriefs that remain in classified 302 forms.

    All the while, Mr. Ohr failed to disclose on financial forms that his wife, Nellie, worked alongside Mr. Steele in 2016, getting paid by Mr. Simpson for anti-Trump research. The Justice Department has now turned over Ohr documents to Congress that show how deeply tied up he was with the Clinton crew—with dozens of emails, calls, meetings and notes that describe his interactions and what he collected.

    Mr. Ohr’s conduct is itself deeply troubling. He was acting as a witness (via FBI interviews) in a case being overseen by a Justice Department in which he held a very senior position. He appears to have concealed this role from at least some superiors, since Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein testified that he’d been unaware of Mr. Ohr’s intermediary status.

    Lawyers meanwhile note that it is a crime for a federal official to participate in any government matter in which he has a financial interest. Fusion’s bank records presumably show Nellie Ohr, and by extension her husband, benefiting from the Trump opposition research that Mr. Ohr continued to pass to the FBI. The Justice Department declined to comment.


    But for all Mr. Ohr’s misdeeds, the worse misconduct is by the FBI and Justice Department. It’s bad enough that the bureau relied on a dossier crafted by a man in the employ of the rival presidential campaign. Bad enough that it never informed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of that dossier’s provenance. And bad enough that the FBI didn’t fire Mr. Steele as a confidential human source in September 2016 when it should have been obvious he was leaking FBI details to the press to harm Donald Trump’s electoral chances. It terminated him only when it was absolutely forced to, after Mr. Steele gave an on-the-record interview on Oct. 31, 2016.

    But now we discover the FBI continued to go to this discredited informant in its investigation after the firing—by funneling his information via a Justice Department cutout. The FBI has an entire manual governing the use of confidential sources, with elaborate rules on validations, standards and documentation. Mr. Steele failed these standards. The FBI then evaded its own program to get at his info anyway.


    And it did so even though we have evidence that lead FBI investigators may have suspected Mr. Ohr was a problem. An Oct. 7, 2016, text message from now-fired FBI agent Peter Strzok to his colleague Lisa Page reads: “Jesus. More BO leaks in the NYT,” which could be a reference to Mr. Ohr.


    The FBI may also have been obtaining, via Mr. Ohr, information that came from a man the FBI had never even vetted as a source—Mr. Simpson. Mr. Steele had at least worked with the FBI before; Mr. Simpson was a paid political operative. And the Ohr notes raise further doubts about Mr. Simpson’s forthrightness. In House testimony in November 2017, Mr. Simpson said only that he reached out to Mr. Ohr after the election, and at Mr. Steele’s suggestion. But Mr. Ohr’s inbox shows an email from Mr. Simpson dated Aug. 22, 2016 that reads, in full: “Can u ring.”


    The Justice Department hasn’t tried to justify any of this; in fact, last year it quietly demoted Mr. Ohr. In what smells of a further admission of impropriety, it didn’t initially turn over the Ohr documents; Congress had to fight to get them.


    But it raises at least two further crucial questions. First, who authorized or knew about this improper procedure? Mr. Strzok seems to be in the thick of it, having admitted to Congress interactions with Mr. Ohr at the end of 2016. While Mr. Rosenstein disclaims knowledge, Mr. Ohr’s direct supervisor at the time was the previous deputy attorney general, Sally Yates. Who else in former FBI Director Jim Comey’s inner circle and at the Obama Justice Department nodded at the FBI’s back-door interaction with a sacked source and a Clinton operative?


    Second, did the FBI continue to submit Steele- or Simpson-sourced information to the FISA court? Having informed the court in later applications that it had fired Mr. Steele, the FBI would have had no business continuing to use any Steele information laundered through an intermediary.

    We could have these answers pronto; they rest in part in those Ohr 302 forms. And so once again: a call for President Trump to declassify.


    https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-wa...d=hp_opin_pos3
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-17-2018 at 03:11 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #13
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Alan Dersrhowitz often irritates, but he is a man of principle. (That's why he often irritates.) Having dealt with my share of ego-driven federal prosecutors on behalf of clients, I did like what he has to say here.

    Is "The Truth" the Truth When It Comes to Prosecutors?



    Summary:

    • All the Special Counsel needs, in order to charge a subject of an investigation with lying to a prosecutor, is a single witnesses willing to contradict the subject.

    • The witness may not only be "singing," he may also be "composing" -- that is, making up or embellishing a story because he knows that the better his story, the better the deal.

    • Under federal law, the testimony of such a "flipped witness" need not be corroborated in order to secure a conviction.

    • Even one question that results in an answer that is contradicted by one witness would be enough to spring the perjury trap.



    Read the whole thing.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Alan Dersrhowitz often irritates, but he is a man of principle. (That's why he often irritates.) Having dealt with my share of ego-driven federal prosecutors on behalf of clients, I did like what he has to say here.

    Read the whole thing.
    It's a good point. One the responses is pretty salient, too. "What if there are audio tapes? Not exactly a jailhouse snitch situation".

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