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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

  1. #991
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    How to get more Trump.

    Pam Bondi confronted by protesters outside Mister Rogers movie

    http://www.tampabay.com/florida-poli...-rogers-movie/

    This is another way:



    Then you’ve got DHS Sec. Kirstjen Nielsen being chased out of a Mexican restaurant in Washington, activists protesting at her home, and Sarah Huckabee Sanders and her family being refused service in a restaurant.

    The new American Way, I guess. Trump is far from blameless in this, of course. But whatever happened to simply voting somebody out of office, or stopping their legislative initiatives, instead of engaging in tactic that look like fascism?

    This looks like a decent breakdown:



    https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...tm_medium=push
    It is kind of fascinating to see people pivoting around some somewhat similar situations. Granted, I know the restaurant owner in this case is claiming to ask Sarah Sanders to leave because of her political beliefs and actions and that is different from someone being gay, but it becomes a little hard to reconcile why it is or isn't okay to refuse service in one instance and not the other. But I guess this is what happens when party is priority over principle.

    And if you think I am calling out the left or the right on this, you are correct. Do we want a world where people can't use a business because of their political beliefs, or because of their sexual orientation? Or do we want a world where businesses can't chose whom they serve? I don't know the answer to this, but I'm fairly certain the people giving the Red Hen negative yelp reviews are not the same people who gave negative reviews to the Colorado baker, and vice versa.

  2. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    It is kind of fascinating to see people pivoting around some somewhat similar situations. Granted, I know the restaurant owner in this case is claiming to ask Sarah Sanders to leave because of her political beliefs and actions and that is different from someone being gay, but it becomes a little hard to reconcile why it is or isn't okay to refuse service in one instance and not the other. But I guess this is what happens when party is priority over principle.

    And if you think I am calling out the left or the right on this, you are correct. Do we want a world where people can't use a business because of their political beliefs, or because of their sexual orientation? Or do we want a world where businesses can't chose whom they serve? I don't know the answer to this, but I'm fairly certain the people giving the Red Hen negative yelp reviews are not the same people who gave negative reviews to the Colorado baker, and vice versa.
    I don't believe that the restaurant owner kicked Sanders out simply because of Sanders' political affiliation or beliefs. I believe it has much more to do with what many, including myself, believe is Sanders willingness to blatantly lie and to defend immoral conduct. I don't share the same political beliefs as my sister and her husband, but we can sit down and eat together. I could sit down and eat with most GOP politicians in Utah, but I would have a hard time sitting down with Sanders. I know I would not sit down with Trump.

  3. #993
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Nancy Pelosi rebuked Maxine Waters. Props to Nancy. There's a lot of rebuking that needs to be done, on all sides.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #994
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    But whatever happened to simply voting somebody out of office, or stopping their legislative initiatives, instead of engaging in tactic that look like fascism?
    As two recent presidential elections have shown us, there’s nothing simple about voting people out.



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  5. #995
    And, of course, there’s now this



    Politics is literally a dumpster fire


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  6. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I don't believe that the restaurant owner kicked Sanders out simply because of Sanders' political affiliation or beliefs. I believe it has much more to do with what many, including myself, believe is Sanders willingness to blatantly lie and to defend immoral conduct. I don't share the same political beliefs as my sister and her husband, but we can sit down and eat together. I could sit down and eat with most GOP politicians in Utah, but I would have a hard time sitting down with Sanders. I know I would not sit down with Trump.
    Lest people think I side with Sarah Sanders I don't, but if the litmus test is a person's willingness to lie and defend immoral behavior then all politicians should be banned from eating establishments.


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  7. #997
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    As two recent presidential elections have shown us, there’s nothing simple about voting people out. 😉

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    You’re right, there is nothing simple about democracy.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-25-2018 at 11:44 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post

    The new American Way, I guess. Trump is far from blameless in this, of course. But whatever happened to simply voting somebody out of office, or stopping their legislative initiatives, instead of engaging in tactic that look like fascism?
    Whoah. You of all people throwing around the f-word? After years and years of complaining that self-rightoous leftists use the f-word to describe everything they don't like about conservatives, or comparing them to Nazis? I love it.

  9. #999
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Whoah. You of all people throwing around the f-word? After years and years of complaining that self-rightoous leftists use the f-word to describe everything they don't like about conservatives, or comparing them to Nazis? I love it.
    Very funny, you commie. But I know you must’ve taken some political science courses at some point.

    I’m applying the term to behavior, not people. You know, liberal vs. illiberal, in classical political science parlance. It is illiberal to shut down speech, refuse service based on one’s political beliefs, and so forth. That’s why I said their behavior looks like fascism. Illiberality is where fascism and communism intersect. That’s one reason why the behavior of the people calling themselves “antifa” is so ironic.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-25-2018 at 01:13 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Very funny, you commie. But I know you must’ve taken some political science courses at some point.

    I’m applying the term to behavior, not people. You know, liberal vs. illiberal, in classical political science parlance. It is illiberal to shut down speech, refuse service based on one’s political beliefs, and so forth. That’s why I said their behavior looks like fascism. Illiberality is where fascism and communism intersect. That’s one reason why the behavior of the people calling themselves “antifa” is so ironic.
    I bet he didn't. I think I took one, and it would have been an obscure topic. Did they even have a political science dept at Yale?

  11. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    I bet he didn't. I think I took one, and it would have been an obscure topic. Did they even have a political science dept at Yale?
    Yes they did. Not that I availed myself of it , however.

  12. #1002
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    David French (a never-Trumper, BTW) says it better than I did:

    Days of Rage

    Angry, in-your-face confrontations dramatically increase the chances of violence. Put people in close proximity, yelling and spitting, and public officials will rightly start to fear that they’re in physical danger. While millions of Americans don’t remember that a Bernie Sanders supporter last year tried to assassinate a significant portion of the GOP Congress, you can be assured that not a single Republican in Washington has forgotten. They can never be sure that the screaming person in front of them doesn’t mean them physical harm.

    Argue against these dangerous confrontations, and you’ll always get the same response: This administration is uniquely evil. It was taking children from their parents. The president just tweeted that he wants to strip due-process rights from illegal immigrants. Desperate times call for desperate measures....
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...eres-the-line/
    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-26-2018 at 08:35 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    That’s why I said their behavior looks like fascism. Illiberality is where fascism and communism intersect. That’s one reason why the behavior of the people calling themselves “antifa” is so ironic.
    Thar sentence itself is laden with irony.

  14. #1004
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Thar sentence itself is laden with irony.
    Stop using such big words.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    David French (a never-Trumper, BTW) says it better to than I did:

    Days of Rage



    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...eres-the-line/
    Add to this that people's outrage is continuing to be stoked by Russian operatives...

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/21/tech...lls/index.html

    Which brings us to the media. They are operating under such a fast news cycle that long ago now they began to value getting the report first over accuracy. Journalists used to make an attempt to verify before they published and now they just plan to correct later.

    The above article asks why the media keeps falling for it and that is why.

    I think over time that people will learn to filter through this stuff better and prize accuracy over speed, kind of like how we've learned to filter through advertising. I'll bet we'll look back on this time as total chaos and naďveté.



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  16. #1006
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    But seriously, folks, no one is answering this question: What place does hassling public servants in their personal lives have in a liberal democracy? A large group of demonstrators showed up at the FCC Chairman's home (where his little kids live) over net neutrality; the White House Press Secretary is asked to leave a restaurant; the AG of Florida is hounded out of a movie theater; the Homeland Security Secretary is hounded out of a restaurant and demonstrators show up at her home; Maxine Waters says "If you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them, and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere."

    I understand that the targets of these efforts are not all sympathetic people. My question: If these are the new rules we are setting or accepting, how will my liberal friends feel when the same rules are used in the future against the government officials they favor?


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post

    I understand that the targets of these efforts are not all sympathetic people. My question: If these are the new rules we are setting or accepting, how will my liberal friends feel when the same rules are used in the future against the government officials they favor?

    The rules are not new. They are just being applied to a new group of people - elected officials - a group that in my opinion, have been allowed to avoid the consequences of their words and their actions for far too long.

    The civility Debate Has Reached Peak Stupidity.

    https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...-hen-civility/

  18. #1008
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    The rules are not new. They are just being applied to a new group of people - elected officials - a group that in my opinion, have been allowed to avoid the consequences of their words and their actions for far too long.

    The civility Debate Has Reached Peak Stupidity.

    https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...-hen-civility/
    Can you think of times in the recent past when this type of behavior has been so widespread, and actively encouraged and defended by elected office holders on the other side, as well as sympathetic pundits?

    EDIT: I think the more important questions are, at what point is it permissible to engage in this kind of harassment of public officials in their personal lives? Who gets to decide when that point is reached?

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    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-26-2018 at 12:27 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    EDIT: I think the more important questions are, at what point is it permissible to engage in this kind of harassment of public officials in their personal lives of? Who gets to decide when that point is reached?
    From my point of view, there is no point where it's permissible to treat others poorly. I've certainly broken that rule myself, but I don't feel good or justified about it.

    The two arguments I've seen attempting to justify this:

    (1) We've always had incivility. _______________ was uncivil (recently or 200 years ago). Why, then, should we be civil?

    and

    (2) There's never been a more grotesque president, and desperate times call for desperate measures. Basically, we need to fight fire with fire.

    I don't find either argument compelling, but I tend to see things from a christian point of view. Even from a strategic/political point of view, however, the restaurant owner hurt her own cause. She'd have served her cause (which is a good cause, I think) better by just giving that women her dinner.

  20. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    From my point of view, there is no point where it's permissible to treat others poorly. I've certainly broken that rule myself, but I don't feel good or justified about it.

    The two arguments I've seen attempting to justify this:

    (1) We've always had incivility. _______________ was uncivil (recently or 200 years ago). Why, then, should we be civil?

    and

    (2) There's never been a more grotesque president, and desperate times call for desperate measures. Basically, we need to fight fire with fire.

    I don't find either argument compelling, but I tend to see things from a christian point of view. Even from a strategic/political point of view, however, the restaurant owner hurt her own cause. She'd have served her cause (which is a good cause, I think) better by just giving that women her dinner.
    I also try to be civil. I admit, however, that I sometimes respond to uncivil or borish behavior with similar behavior. I try to avoid putting myself in those situations and that is why I do not attend Utah games at BYU.

  21. #1011
    I like this tweet:



    Should/will we start treating people in person the way we treat them online? Is it inevitable that we become what we are online?

  22. #1012

  23. #1013
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    And this is a big part of the current problem.

    https://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trum.../#jzeo.RRmriqd

  24. #1014
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #1015
    SCOTUS Kennedy just announced his retirement. Trump to get another pick. 😡


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  26. #1016
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    SCOTUS Kennedy just announced his retirement. Trump to get another pick. 😡


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    I hope he doesn’t nominate a Gorsuch or a Thomas. Another Kennedy or a Lewis Powell would be fine.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I hope he doesn’t nominate a Gorsuch or a Thomas. Another Kennedy or a Lewis Powell would be fine.
    I disagree. I think he's really starting to come into his own with his recruiting and coaching the D-line.

  28. #1018

  29. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    SCOTUS Kennedy just announced his retirement. Trump to get another pick. 😡


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Senate Democrats should drape a big "Mitch's Team" banner across the back of the chambers and filibuster any nominee Trump names, then refuse to consider anyone he nominates after they take back the Senate.

  30. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I hope he doesn’t nominate a Gorsuch or a Thomas. Another Kennedy or a Lewis Powell would be fine.
    Because nothing sums up Trump better than even-handed, moderate decisions.

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