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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

  1. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I agree.

    As for Rudy - he's throwing away quite the legacy. And for what?
    Because he’s a lawyer zealously representing his client?
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  2. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Because he’s a lawyer zealously representing his client?
    Have you missed HOW he has been zealously representing his client? He absolutely is undermining his legacy right now.

    Just the lone claim that Trump could shoot Comey and not be charged as president, while a claimed "hypothetical" is a hugely disturbing hypothetical. Hard to not recognize it as a dog whistle spoken about a political foe and now private citizen (and one who has done many similar things you've lauded Giuliani when it comes to mob bosses in NYC). That speaking alone, were I Comey, would encourage me to step up and/or get a security detail.

    Let's also face it, despite his good work in the past, that doesn't absolve him of his actions now. After all, aren't you the same guy who leveled criticism at Chris Hill for those same reasons?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” F. Scott Fitzgerald

    I know. To you it’s an unfathomable trick. Like a special effect.
    It'd be quite the trick if you had considered both opposing ideas upon writing your post. All evidence points to the fact you did not. At least not until I pointed out the irony in what you had written.

    “Don't for heaven's sake, be afraid of talking nonsense. But you must pay attention to your nonsense.” Ludwig Wittgenstein

  4. #934
    Moving on. Many of the Philadelphia Eagles indicated that they would not attend the reception with Trump. Trump, typical for him, then cancels the reception. If invited, I would not attend a reception held by Trump. I would not spend any effort to see him in public and would avoid, unless to protest, any event he would attend. I can say that I would have attended any reception by any other President with the possible exception of Bill Clinton and Nixon, but with them it would depend when during their Presidencies the invitation was made. IMO, Nixon, Clinton and Trump have all degraded the Office of the President of the United States.

  5. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Because he’s a lawyer zealously representing his client?
    Don't forget, he chose to represent Trump, and put himself in the position for all that entails. Why did he do it? Perchance, the love of the limelight that Concerned referred to? An overriding belief in the Donald? What does that say for his legacy?
    I'm curious about his grit after 9-11. Similar "grit" gave us the Iraq war. What did Guliani do?

  6. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    No offense, but I’m sure you know more than that about Giuliani.

    I’ll preface this by saying that, in general, I am deeply mistrusting of prosecutors. They represent a combination of substantial if not unilimited resources of the government and soaring ambition usually pitted against individuals or private interests that ought to be automatically viewed with suspicion. Our pro bono work has only reinforced this instinct. Because of this, I’m troubled that once again we are criminalizing what is essentially politics. I agree with Dershowitz; a true civil liberatarian ought to be troubled by this, and it was possible for Congress to investigate Russia’s meddling in the election without criminalizing politics by engaging a prosecutor. (Mueller is ambitious and zealous like any prosecutor, and I’m still waiting for him to show us that there is any even probable cause that Trump committed a crime to justify his involvement in the first place.)

    Now, Rudy Giuliani is one of the most important prosecutors in the history of our country and one to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude. It was his work as US Attorney in the Southern District of New York, certainly the most important US Attorney’s office and court in the country in terms of financial matters, that ultimately crushed the Italian mafia (which J Edgar Hoover denied even existed) and purged Wall Street of a level of corruption never seen since. America’s prosperity depends on financial markets, and the system needs to be fair to do its magic, as demonstrated by places like Brazil. Does anyone but me remember how Giuliani had rich investment bankers arrested and handcuffed?

    As for Giuliani not trying the case and taking credit, the US Attorney never tries the case. But it’s his office, his hires who try the case, his decision to prosecute and guidance that leads to the good and bad results. It’s strange that a trial lawyer would complain that Giuliani took the credit for a courtroom victory. This always happens in any US Attorney’s office.

    Later, Rudy Giuliani gained worldwide fame as mayor of New York City on 9/11, for his grit and leadership.

    P.S. I am not a fan of Trump. But I think that we need to just grit our teeth and try to elect someone else next election. I’ve seen this movie before—Watergate probably did most damage in leading to Iran-contra prosecution of Reagan, Lewinsky related impeachment’s of Clinton, and now this. Remember that the Reign of Terror and the Stalin show trials were the result of criminalizing political disagreement.
    I agree with Seattle here on prosecutors and their discretion and power. It's frightening. And once they get someone in their cross hairs, it no longer matters whether anybody did anything wrong. They are going after someone regardless.

    I hate Trump. But we just need to vote him out. Someone needs to pay attention to the needs of working class uneducated whites. They are a very large group of voters. Obama beat Romney because 90 percent of blacks in America voted for him and they came out and voted in droves. Trump has tapped into their anger. The dems need to respond.

  7. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Because he’s a lawyer zealously representing his client?
    Is that supposed to be seen as noble?

    You expressed a distaste for prosecutors, but lawyers of all shapes and sizes can play the horrible game.

  8. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Is that supposed to be seen as noble?

    You expressed a distaste for prosecutors, but lawyers of all shapes and sizes can play the horrible game.
    There is a really big difference between private lawyers playing "the horrible game" as you characterize it, and prosecutors who have the power to take away your freedom.

  9. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    There is a really big difference between private lawyers playing "the horrible game" as you characterize it, and prosecutors who have the power to take away your freedom.
    Sure, there are different levels of bad.

    "Zealously representing a client" is not always a good thing.

  10. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Sure, there are different levels of bad.

    "Zealously representing a client" is not always a good thing.

    "different levels of bad" What a joke. You understand that the reason commerce happens the way it does in America is because of the rule of law, which is based upon and requires lawyers to zealously represent their clients's interest in order to enforce agreements.

    You are a flat out caveman if you can't understand the critical role lawyers play in this system--which requires advocating their client's position.

  11. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    "different levels of bad" What a joke. You understand that the reason commerce happens the way it does in America is because of the rule of law, which is based upon and requires lawyers to zealously represent their clients's interest in order to enforce agreements.

    You are a flat out caveman if you can't understand the critical role lawyers play in this system--which requires advocating their client's position.

    I didn't say that zealously representing a client is necessarily a bad thing. I said it isn't always a good thing. Just like not all prosecutors are bad. Some are good. A bad prosecutor is particularly awful because of the implications for the innocent.

    Corruption can happen everywhere, even in law offices.

  12. #942
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime."

    -- Lavrentiy Beria, head of Stalin's secret police.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    "different levels of bad" What a joke. You understand that the reason commerce happens the way it does in America is because of the rule of law, which is based upon and requires lawyers to zealously represent their clients's interest in order to enforce agreements.

    You are a flat out caveman if you can't understand the critical role lawyers play in this system--which requires advocating their client's position.
    "When you resort to highlighting and justifying the importance of your existence, you have lost the argument." —tooblue

  14. #944
    So, considering that a President maybe technically could pardon himself, why does the legislature not simply fix this 'loophole' of sorts? It would seem passing a simple law stating a president can't pardon himself of crimes would have broad support among the public. This isn't just for Trump but any president in the future.

  15. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I didn't say that zealously representing a client is necessarily a bad thing. I said it isn't always a good thing. Just like not all prosecutors are bad. Some are good. A bad prosecutor is particularly awful because of the implications for the innocent.

    Corruption can happen everywhere, even in law offices.
    You’re so confused. Lawyers are supposed to be zealous, it’s our ethical obligation, particularly in criminal matters. The only limitation is that we not make frivolous arguments to a court or ourselves break the law. Nobody claims Giuliani has not done anything dishonest. In fact, any fool with a law degree should know that Giuliani should do whatever it takes to keep Trump from testifying, and that has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence. Clinton was impeached and disbarred because while testifying he argued with a prosecutor about whether fellatio absent organism is sex—purportedly that was purjury. When Giuliani said he Trump could have shot Comey and not been indicted he was employing a rhetorical device to make his point that the president is immune from prosecution. I don’t know if his point is legally correct, but it’s not unusual for lawyers to disagree over what the law is.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  16. #946
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    This isn't just for Trump but any president in the future.
    This is why. Eventually they may want it to happen.

  17. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    "Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime."

    -- Lavrentiy Beria, head of Stalin's secret police.
    Whatever anyone thinks of Trump, we must admit to ourselves that this Mueller thing from beginning to end is 100% politics. Manafort would have none of these legal problems had he not gotten himself mixed up in Trump’s campaign. I’ve heard reporters on supposedly progressive NPR say with glee that so and so will have to cop a plea to a felony because he has a family with small children and just can’t afford to fund his defense. It’s not right.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  18. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Whatever anyone thinks of Trump, we must admit to ourselves that this Mueller thing from beginning to end is 100% politics. Manafort would have none of these legal problems had he not gotten himself mixed up in Trump’s campaign. I’ve heard reporters on supposedly progressive NPR say with glee that so and so will have to cop a plea to a felony because he has a family with small children and just can’t afford to fund his defense. It’s not right.
    Wait, are you arguing that Manafort hasn't broken the law, or he simply wouldn't have been caught?

    I'm with you that I don't like the glee of cornering people because of their financial situations or others as described, but it is hard to have sympathy for Manafort. The guy was clearly a bad actor and presuming Trump's innocence, whomever did the vetting of Manafort in his campaign blew it big time. The guy is seven layers thick of stank.

  19. #949
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Wait, are you arguing that Manafort hasn't broken the law, or he simply wouldn't have been caught?

    I'm with you that I don't like the glee of cornering people because of their financial situations or others as described, but it is hard to have sympathy for Manafort. The guy was clearly a bad actor and presuming Trump's innocence, whomever did the vetting of Manafort in his campaign blew it big time. The guy is seven layers thick of stank.
    he’s entitled to the presumption of innocence until convicted. But aside from that, whatever he’s been charged with has nothing to do with, and happened many years before the 2016 campaign. Nobody claims there’s a nexus, except that the prosecutor wants to cut a plea deal and enlist him as a witness. And I submit that since he’s never been pursued before he’d not be charged now but for the larger political game. Prosecutors are selective about whom they will investigate or indict.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 06-06-2018 at 10:37 AM.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  20. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    he’s entitled to the presumption of innocence until convicted. But aside from that, whatever he’s been charged with has nothing to do with, and happened many years before the 2016 campaign. Nobody claims there’s a nexus, except that the prosecutor wants to cut a plea deal and enlist him as a witness. And I submit that since he’s never been pursued before he’d not be charged now but for the larger political game. Prosecutors are selective about whom they will investigate or indict.
    Paul Manafort was on the FBI's radar going back to 2013. So, yah, there is a nexus.

    https://www.politicususa.com/2018/04...-campaign.html

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-trump-mueller

  21. #951
    So, a certain star of a recently cancelled ABC sitcom once said that all bankers, as well as people making over $1 million dollars per year, should be beheaded. She once posed as Adolf Hitler with a plate full of baby cookies. She ran for president in 2012 with Cindy Sheehan as her running mate, on a platform of universal healthcare and legalizing marijuana. She once suggested that there are airplanes overhead spraying mind-altering chemicals on the American people. She accused GW Bush of planning the 9-11 attacks. Later she accused Obama of perpetrating the bombing of the Boston Marathon. Basically, this personality has a history of saying outrageous things, but she does not have a history of being a Republican or a conservative. Yet, because she supports the current occupant of the White House, people on the right rushed to her defense while people on the left rushed to attack her.

    I've never liked her, never thought she was funny, didn't watch the comeback of the show that was just cancelled.

    Again, my advice to all, both on the right and the left: Look before you leap.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  22. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    You’re so confused. Lawyers are supposed to be zealous, it’s our ethical obligation
    You're taking me back to grad school. My roommates were all law students, and they were completely sold on the idea that the ethics of practicing law have all been worked out. They - obviously - aren't as smart as you, but they never convinced me that everything is 100% black or white.

  23. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    You’re so confused. Lawyers are supposed to be zealous, it’s our ethical obligation, particularly in criminal matters. The only limitation is that we not make frivolous arguments to a court or ourselves break the law.
    I also think it is our ethical responsibility to not suborn perjury or to lie.

  24. #954
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Very interesting thought piece here. Seems relevant to Life in the Trump Era.

    The High Price of Stale Grievances

    https://quillette.com/2018/06/05/high-price-stale-grievances/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #955
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The media has turned the Trump presidency into a phenomenon of constant self-absorption—their self-absorption in this one person. Donald Trump has become the biggest balloon in a political Macy’s parade of modern media’s own creation. They could let go of the ropes. But they won’t.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-7...s-0-1528326234

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #956
    The author is spot on.

  27. #957
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    How to Lose the Midterms and Re-elect Trump

    By Frank Bruni
    Opinion Columnist

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/1...antha-bee.html

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #958
    I don't think I can find common ground with anyone who condones, justify or excuses Trump's policy of separating children from parents whose sole criminal charge is attempting to enter the country illegally. I believe the policy is inhumane, barbaric and amounts to holding children hostage to Trump's demand for funding for his wall and other immigration policies. If children are of special import to God, I believe those who promulgate and support this policy, either directly or indirectly, will be held accountable. I am disappointed by the silence of religious leaders, especially my own.

  29. #959
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I don't think I can find common ground with anyone who condones, justify or excuses Trump's policy of separating children from parents whose sole criminal charge is attempting to enter the country illegally. I believe the policy is inhumane, barbaric and amounts to holding children hostage to Trump's demand for funding for his wall and other immigration policies. If children are of special import to God, I believe those who promulgate and support this policy, either directly or indirectly, will be held accountable. I am disappointed by the silence of religious leaders, especially my own.
    Kids should never be part of a political negotiation ploy. Ever.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I don't think I can find common ground with anyone who condones, justify or excuses Trump's policy of separating children from parents whose sole criminal charge is attempting to enter the country illegally. I believe the policy is inhumane, barbaric and amounts to holding children hostage to Trump's demand for funding for his wall and other immigration policies. If children are of special import to God, I believe those who promulgate and support this policy, either directly or indirectly, will be held accountable. I am disappointed by the silence of religious leaders, especially my own.
    I agree. It's unbelievable. I would quit my job with la migra before doing what they are doing. If I were the governor of Texas, I would arrest immigration officials and force a showdown.

    LA and others (do we have others on this board?), I wonder if you ever consider leaving the GOP like George Will did. What's keeping you in there?

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