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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

  1. #1591
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The tax bill didn't help me at all. I think removing the state and local tax deduction was a punitive measure, taken against high-tax blue states. I also think the Democrats have lied brazenly and repeatedly about the tax bill, just as Matthew Iglesias admitted. Just for fun I Googled "2017 tax bill nonpartisan analysis," and found this as the first result, from the Tax Policy Center (a creature of The Urban Institute and Brookings, not reassuringly nonpartisan in my mind):

    https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/feat...s-and-jobs-act

    It does look like most people got a tax cut. So, FWIW.

    Maybe I am becoming a grumpy old guy but these days I am viewing both parties with a jaundiced eye. Both of them spin and lie disingenuously and incessantly (my bias is that the Dems/left are more shameless at that), and we have a boor in the White House.

    Attachment 2533
    You are a grumpy old man. However, your eye is not jaundiced.

  2. #1592
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The tax bill didn't help me at all. I think removing the state and local tax deduction was a punitive measure, taken against high-tax blue states. I also think the Democrats have lied brazenly and repeatedly about the tax bill, just as Matthew Iglesias admitted. Just for fun I Googled "2017 tax bill nonpartisan analysis," and found this as the first result, from the Tax Policy Center (a creature of The Urban Institute and Brookings, not reassuringly nonpartisan in my mind):

    https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/feat...s-and-jobs-act

    It does look like most people got a tax cut. So, FWIW.

    Maybe I am becoming a grumpy old guy but these days I am viewing both parties with a jaundiced eye. Both of them spin and lie disingenuously and incessantly (my bias is that the Dems/left are more shameless at that), and we have a boor in the White House.

    Attachment 2533
    I don't doubt that the majority of taxpayers got some type of tax cut. The information you site seems to reflect what was promised. The top 5% got a reduction of about 4-5%. The lowest about 1-2%. My son, who grosses about $40k saw a reduction of about 1%. That $400 was a paltry sum compared to the $765,000 tax cut to the CEO of United Healthcare, who pocketed about $17 million this past year, will likely receive.

    Both parties are motivated by one thing only. Power and control. They will say and do anything to gain and keep it. We are governed by tyrants and their moneymen here in the US and throughout the world. Seems like I have heard something about that somewhere.

  3. #1593
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I don't doubt that the majority of taxpayers got some type of tax cut. The information you site seems to reflect what was promised. The top 5% got a reduction of about 4-5%. The lowest about 1-2%. My son, who grosses about $40k saw a reduction of about 1%. That $400 was a paltry sum compared to the $765,000 tax cut to the CEO of United Healthcare, who pocketed about $17 million this past year, will likely receive.

    Both parties are motivated by one thing only. Power and control. They will say and do anything to gain and keep it. We are governed by tyrants and their moneymen here in the US and throughout the world. Seems like I have heard something about that somewhere.

    Thanks you for saying it better than I did.

  4. #1594
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Thanks you for saying it better than I did.
    UTEopia expressed a principled and fact-supported position. What I am calling out is the outright lying about the tax bill -- claiming that it actually was a tax increase. As Matthew Iglesias said, the progressives deserve credit for making that falsehood stick.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #1595
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    UTEopia expressed a principled and fact-supported position. What I am calling out is the outright lying about the tax bill -- claiming that it actually was a tax increase. As Matthew Iglesias said, the progressives deserve credit for making that falsehood stick.

    There was also a lot of lying about the size of the tax cut for the middle class, and the benefits to be enjoyed (both absolutely and relative to the very wealthy). That was the whole point of the change to withholding regs--to make it seem like a tax cut when it was not. As I tried to say and Utopia said better, the benefits to most of us are minimal at best.

  6. #1596
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    There was also a lot of lying about the size of the tax cut for the middle class, and the benefits to be enjoyed (both absolutely and relative to the very wealthy). That was the whole point of the change to withholding regs--to make it seem like a tax cut when it was not. As I tried to say and Utopia said better, the benefits to most of us are minimal at best.
    Do you really think the Repubs went to all that trouble to pass a bill that would benefit only the very wealthy? Was there no principle motivating them, even if it is misguided? I mean, I love you guys, but that is the kind of simplistic thinking on both sides of the aisle that has the country in such a polarized state right now.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #1597
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Do you really think the Repubs went to all that trouble to pass a bill that would benefit only the very wealthy? Was there no principle motivating them, even if it is misguided? I mean, I love you guys, but that is the kind of simplistic thinking on both sides of the aisle that has the country in such a polarized state right now.
    Please. This coming from the guy who says the libs lie more than conservatives even though the president is a pathological, compulsive liar. I said the tax cut overwhelmingly benefitted the very wealthy and corporations (which have used the money largely for stock buy backs, not reinvestment). It could have been structured much differently to benefit the middle class more (by getting rid of the carried interest rule, for one small example, taxing investment income and capital gains the same as or much closer to ordinary income for another). The principle was tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts to the exclusion of everything else. It has been the motivating principle of Paul Ryan's career, but enacted without a way to pay for them, except by cutting benefits later. The principle is to undermine the welfare state. You think that isnt true?

    Sometimes I think you are so blinded by your preconceptions that you cant see what is in front of you. So there.

  8. #1598
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Do you really think the Repubs went to all that trouble to pass a bill that would benefit only the very wealthy?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Was there no principle motivating them, even if it is misguided?
    Yes, the principal that the rich should get a tax cut, which is misguided.

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I mean, I love you guys, but that is the kind of simplistic thinking on both sides of the aisle that has the country in such a polarized state right now.
    I like simple and believe that Occam's Razor carries a lot of wisdom.

  9. #1599
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    NBC Poll - "Most Americans don't think Trump is in the clear on Russia, yet" https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/mee...e-mode-n989061

    It's one poll, the split basically reflects the divide on Trump in general, maybe this reflects the deep cynicism people have in general.

    But one part of the poll sticks out - 31% of those polled say they're not sure if Trump has been cleared, yet: 45% of this group are independents, 27% are Democrats, but curiously, 25% are Republicans.

    This last group is a fascinating demographic to consider. Do they think it's because Adam Schiff & Jerry Nadler are going to keep the issue going? Are they not entirely comfortable with Trump's odd deference to Putin, or overt attempts to curry loyalty, or aren't sure Mueller got to the bottom of things because Trump struggles to tell the truth about just about every topic?

    I admit I thought Mueller would find fairly strong evidence of collusion/conspiracy, based on a wide variety of evidence, and Trump's tendency to act like a mob boss. But there was some doubt, notably from Cohen, who said he didn't see direct evidence of collusion, but thought there could be, or Brennan specifically saying while he was in office he didn't see direct evidence in the Intel, but saw very concerning "parallelism" in events that suggested there could be some.

    Hopefully Trump will now support efforts to improve election security and better protect the nation from the cyber threat from the outside. I think Trump might keep stoking doubts about his innocence vis-à-vis Russia alive by continuing the weird "free speech" attacks on Twitter and Facebook, helping the Breitbart/InfoWars/Jerry Corsi conspiracy sector, and Trump over-selling the summary of the Mueller report to include a complete exoneration on obstruction of justice.
    You’ve pretty much proved my point.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #1600
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Please. This coming from the guy who says the libs lie more than conservatives even though the president is a pathological, compulsive liar. I said the tax cut overwhelmingly benefitted the very wealthy and corporations (which have used the money largely for stock buy backs, not reinvestment). It could have been structured much differently to benefit the middle class more (by getting rid of the carried interest rule, for one small example, taxing investment income and capital gains the same as or much closer to ordinary income for another). The principle was tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts to the exclusion of everything else. It has been the motivating principle of Paul Ryan's career, but enacted without a way to pay for them, except by cutting benefits later. The principle is to undermine the welfare state. You think that isnt true?

    Sometimes I think you are so blinded by your preconceptions that you cant see what is in front of you. So there.
    As a person who doesn’t like Trump, I still think Trump Derangement Syndrome exists and is at work here. I think the Democrats are quite disingenuous in the way they describe the bill. No legislation is perfect, I didn’t like it, but it isn’t what they say it is — a major sellout to the rich. You are not pushing that narrative, but people like Nancy Pelosi are, and it is a “big lie” tactic.

    And the GOP Congress during the first 2 years of Trump were the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Pathetic.

    So THERE!
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-10-2019 at 05:42 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #1601
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think the Democrats are quite disingenuous in the way they describe the bill.
    I agree with this. The parties lie and twist everything. They show no respect for their voters, assuming that most are too dumb to know they are being lied to and knowing that most of the rest won't mind the lies anyway.

    Everything is cast in terms of the most simplistic accusations of good and evil. What's ironic is that we finally have a president who actually can be cast that way, but the effect has been overused and worn out.

  12. #1602
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    As a person who doesn’t like Trump, I still think Trump Derangement Syndrome exists and is at work here. I think the Democrats are quite disingenuous in the way they describe the bill. No legislation is perfect, I didn’t like it, but it isn’t what they say it is — a major sellout to the rich. You are not pushing that narrative, but people like Nancy Pelosi are, and it is a “big lie” tactic.

    And the GOP Congress during the first 2 years of Trump were the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Pathetic.

    So THERE!
    How does the Kool Aid taste?

  13. #1603
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    How does the Kool Aid taste?
    I like it with a bit of Pellegrino added.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #1604
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Do you really think the Repubs went to all that trouble to pass a bill that would benefit only the very wealthy? Was there no principle motivating them, even if it is misguided? I mean, I love you guys, but that is the kind of simplistic thinking on both sides of the aisle that has the country in such a polarized state right now.
    The hugh lie was that the cuts would be revenue neutral. The cuts were ideological, and not targeted for the rich. They were premised upon the trickle down, supply side theory, which should be shelved with communism as pipe dream theories. (Sorry, this is not well said, but I'm sick.)

  15. #1605
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    I was listening to a podcast about an experiment with an easy tax form in California. It was hugely successful, so they started asking around to see what it would take to push this form on the Federal level. They got lots of pushback from congressmen on making the tax for simpler. Mainly from places you wouldn't expect: Republican congressmen want to keep the tax form complicated so taxpayers stay angry about taxes.

    Podcast:

    Planet Money
    April 3, 2019
    The Tax Hero

  16. #1606
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    The hugh lie was that the cuts would be revenue neutral. The cuts were ideological, and not targeted for the rich. They were premised upon the trickle down, supply side theory, which should be shelved with communism as pipe dream theories. (Sorry, this is not well said, but I'm sick.)
    The tax bill was not Congress’s most shining moment — the GOP for passing a weird, ideological, punitive bill that might have produced some positive effects, but we’ll never know; and the Dems for aggressively and consistently saying it was a tax increase for less well-off people. It weren’t and it ain’t.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #1607
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is pretty funny. You've got to read the whole thing, but here's an excerpt:

    “You just don’t know who you’re going to get.”


    Staff listed a spare room in the Embassy figuring it would be easy money given the desirable central London location, though they only intended to rent it on weekends during the summer.


    “Instead this guy arrives and refuses to ever leave....”
    http://www.breakingburgh.com/ecuador...-airbnb-again/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #1608
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The tax bill was not Congress’s most shining moment — the GOP for passing a weird, ideological, punitive bill that might have produced some positive effects, but we’ll never know; and the Dems for aggressively and consistently saying it was a tax increase for less well-off people. It weren’t and it ain’t.
    How will we never know? Economists predicted there would be a short term stimulus effect, which there was. With a deficit increase, which there has been.

    Many economists are now saying that unless there's something that nudges this very long expansion into recession, we're tending back toward growth around 2% or just above. The stimulus has worn off.... but the elevated deficit levels are still with us.

  19. #1609
    Nothing from our resident expert on which party is the most cynical about Trump's push to send asylum seekers to sanctuary cities?

  20. #1610
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Nothing from our resident expert on which party is the most cynical about Trump's push to send asylum seekers to sanctuary cities?
    If you're talking about me I am flattered. I can't make up my mind on the cynicism meter question. Politically, I think the sanctuary cities look worse (hypocritical) but it's close. I'm actually quite tired of the entire Trump vs. the Left food fight.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-12-2019 at 09:38 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #1611
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    From that right-wing rag, the New York Times:

    Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut

    Studies consistently find that the 2017 law cut taxes for most Americans. Most of them don’t buy it....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #1612
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    From that right-wing rag, the New York Times:

    Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut
    A function of the bad sell, and possibly less of a cut than expected. Why do Republicans (not the authors) push this so when they refused to pass a stimulus package in the early years of the Obama years for fear of an expanded deficit?

  23. #1613
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    A function of the bad sell, and possibly less of a cut than expected. Why do Republicans (not the authors) push this so when they refused to pass a stimulus package in the early years of the Obama years for fear of an expanded deficit?
    In addition to being the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight, they refused to work with Obama. Obama also refused to work with them. His inexperience in national politics and his Chicago take-no-prisoners, "we won, so shut up" attitude, along with his arrogance, kept him from being the president he could have been. For there to be compromise at the federal level, I think it has to start with the POTUS. Examples: LBJ, Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #1614
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Well, that's a new take:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Moore
    "Capitalism is a lot more important than democracy," Moore said. "I'm not even a big believer in democracy. I always say that democracy can be two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner. Look, I'm in favor of people having the right to vote and things like that. But there are a lot of countries that have the right to vote that are still poor. Democracy doesn't always lead to a good economy or even a good political system."
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/12/polit...ile/index.html

  25. #1615
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    In addition to being the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight, they refused to work with Obama. Obama also refused to work with them. His inexperience in national politics and his Chicago take-no-prisoners, "we won, so shut up" attitude, along with his arrogance, kept him from being the president he could have been. For there to be compromise at the federal level, I think it has to start with the POTUS. Examples: LBJ, Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush.
    We're going to have to agree to disagree on who refused to work with who. When McConnell said he would do everything he could do to block anything Obama wanted to do, then he rises to the top of the list. You can't convince me that his attitude arose only after two years of Obama's administration. Obama made efforts to cross over on immigration and infrastructure, and was rebuked. The Republicans' indifference about deficits on the tax bill only magnifies their interest in frustrating Obama on the infrastructure issue.
    In other words, same old argument.

  26. #1616
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    We're going to have to agree to disagree on who refused to work with who. When McConnell said he would do everything he could do to block anything Obama wanted to do, then he rises to the top of the list. You can't convince me that his attitude arose only after two years of Obama's administration. Obama made efforts to cross over on immigration and infrastructure, and was rebuked. The Republicans' indifference about deficits on the tax bill only magnifies their interest in frustrating Obama on the infrastructure issue.
    In other words, same old argument.
    No kidding. Obama had a deal with Boehner on the budget. Boehner couldn't sell it to the Freedom Caucus/Tea Party. Agreement was always impossible because Boehner couldn't deliver (and feared) the right wing, unless everyone capitulated to the right wing. (Since Boehner was never willing to abandon the Hastert rule.)
    Last edited by concerned; 04-16-2019 at 09:07 AM.

  27. #1617
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    We're going to have to agree to disagree on who refused to work with who. When McConnell said he would do everything he could do to block anything Obama wanted to do, then he rises to the top of the list. You can't convince me that his attitude arose only after two years of Obama's administration. Obama made efforts to cross over on immigration and infrastructure, and was rebuked. The Republicans' indifference about deficits on the tax bill only magnifies their interest in frustrating Obama on the infrastructure issue.
    In other words, same old argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    No kidding. Obama had a deal with Boehner on the budget. Boehner couldn't sell it to the Freedom Caucus/Tea Party. Agreement was always impossible because Boehner couldn't deliver (and feared) the right wing, unless everyone capitulated to the right wing. (Since Boehner was never willing to abandon the Hastert rule.)
    Yes, we can agree to disagree. I did say the Republicans were (and are) the gang that couldn't shoot straight. They were idiots about cooperating with the Obama White House. The Freedom Caucus is a bunch of people more beholden to their donors -- or more charitably, to their base -- than to their constituents or to the country. (This malady is not confined to Republicans!) They regularly gum up the works of Congress.

    But President Obama doesn't get a pass. When Republicans did try to reach out to him, he infamously reminded them that elections have consequences: "I won." Well, that's one way of looking at our system of checks and balances. It probably works better in Chicago than in Washington. He's also the guy who said "I have a phone and a pen" and often tried to rule by executive order. (Not the only president to do that. Doesn't make it right.) That he was slaughtered in both midterm congressional elections during his two terms suggests that the electorate was unhappy with his approach.

    Look, when Medicare was enacted it was a huge change in the country's approach to how health care works. Over half the Republicans in the House voted for it. Almost half the Republicans in the Senate did too. Lyndon Johnson knew how to work compromises and bipartisan legislation. And...those laws have endured. I don't think Republicans were simply more reasonable in those days.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #1618
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Yes, we can agree to disagree. I did say the Republicans were (and are) the gang that couldn't shoot straight. They were idiots about cooperating with the Obama White House. The Freedom Caucus is a bunch of people more beholden to their donors -- or more charitably, to their base -- than to their constituents or to the country. (This malady is not confined to Republicans!) They regularly gum up the works of Congress.

    But President Obama doesn't get a pass. When Republicans did try to reach out to him, he infamously reminded them that elections have consequences: "I won." Well, that's one way of looking at our system of checks and balances. It probably works better in Chicago than in Washington. He's also the guy who said "I have a phone and a pen" and often tried to rule by executive order. (Not the only president to do that. Doesn't make it right.) That he was slaughtered in both midterm congressional elections during his two terms suggests that the electorate was unhappy with his approach.

    Look, when Medicare was enacted it was a huge change in the country's approach to how health care works. Over half the Republicans in the House voted for it. Almost half the Republicans in the Senate did too. Lyndon Johnson knew how to work compromises and bipartisan legislation. And...those laws have endured. I don't think Republicans were simply more reasonable in those days.

    Well, we have had this disagreement before. Obama did compromise on Obamacare, that is why he went with Romneycare instead of single payer--it was a Republican idea (Heritage Foundation). Health care was all or nothing; you were either going to enact it or you weren't. Republicans were not going to accept it in any form (because it was Obamacare and not Romneycare, IMHO). What was their rejected compromise? Obama also compromised on the size of the stimulus. Dems wanted a much larger stimulus. There was also potential compromise on immigration until your brave guy Rubio and others walked away from their own deal under fear of the Tea Party.

    Obama went with executive order (not saying it was right or wrong) because there was no compromise to be had. Your idea of compromise is capitulation.

  29. #1619
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Your idea of compromise is capitulation.
    Was it capitulation when the Constitutional Convention agreed to a bicameral legislature, one elected by the states and the other by the people? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No, wait....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #1620
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Was it capitulation when the Constitutional Convention agreed to a bicameral legislature, one elected by the states and the other by the people? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No, wait....
    If only Obama has agreed to everything the Tea Party wanted, we would have had bipartisan working government . . . .

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