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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

  1. #1291
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    Obama tried to work with Republicans on immigration issues and got burned badly on it. As far as the ACA goes, he had the example of Clinton's efforts to get a bipartisan health bill through Congress to learn from. Do you think McConnell and Republicans suddenly became less willing to work with Obama after they became the majority? Obama rightly knew that his first two years might be the only opportunity to get major health care reform passed for a long time. Proof of that is the alternatives to the ACA that Republicans have proposed.
    Sadly, Obama didn't have a Congress of the mid sixties. Do you think the Congress of 2010-2016 would have passed the various Civil Rights Acts if Obama would have proposed them?
    Speaking of Obama's style, what did the WSJ and Washington Examiner have to say about Obama's comments yesterday.
    What may come across as arrogant lecturing to one may come across as making critical points to another. I never thought of Obama as arrogantly lecturing at the time. I guess I'd have to see a body of examples (not a few anecdotes) before I even understood the claim.

  2. #1292
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    Speaking of Obama's style, what did the WSJ and Washington Examiner have to say about Obama's comments yesterday.
    What may come across as arrogant lecturing to one may come across as making critical points to another. I never thought of Obama as arrogantly lecturing at the time. I guess I'd have to see a body of examples (not a few anecdotes) before I even understood the claim.
    Agree
    It is the difference in our political perspectives. I see Obama as inspiring, invoking the better angels of our nature, LA Ute sees him as self righteous and condescending. Lots of people are on opposite sides of that fundamental divide.
    Last edited by concerned; 09-08-2018 at 11:13 AM.

  3. #1293
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    LA, you need to reserve strong words like "disaster as a leader" for situations that truly deserve them. Otherwise, you have no adequate descriptions when the true disaster happens.
    Well, I said "He was a disaster as a leader, in terms of getting things done."

    I also think that blaming Congress is just an excuse. He was just as intransigent as they were. He started off his first term by pointedly telling the Republican leadership "Elections have consequences. I won." Can you imagine Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, or Bush II saying such a thing to the leaders of the opposing party?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #1294
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    (The following is satire.)

    Man Who Intentionally Divided Nation For Eight Years Calls For Unity


    https://babylonbee.com/news/man-who-...lls-for-unity/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #1295
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    (The following is satire.)
    Man Who Intentionally Divided Nation For Eight Years Calls For Unity


    https://babylonbee.com/news/man-who-...lls-for-unity/
    Until I saw your small type comment and the related articles underneath, I thought this was an actual story. I understand the claims that Obama carefully stoked divisions and pushed identity politics, though I don't agree with them. There is some truth to the talk of the 1%ers and other economically based arguments being divisive. Trump's playing to White Supremacists is a whole different ballgame.

  6. #1296
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Well, I said "He was a disaster as a leader, in terms of getting things done."

    I also think that blaming Congress is just an excuse. He was just as intransigent as they were. He started off his first term by pointedly telling the Republican leadership "Elections have consequences. I won." Can you imagine Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, or Bush II saying such a thing to the leaders of the opposing party?
    How can you say Obama was just as intransigent/bad when Republicans didn't even give him an opportunity for bipartisanship, and publicly stated that was their intent? What did the Republicans do with his bipartisan attempts on immigration? Where was his intransigence, other than a single statement? What was that statement made in relation to? Passing healthcare legislation, which Republicans were going to take no part in?

  7. #1297

    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    How can you say Obama was just as intransigent/bad when Republicans didn't even give him an opportunity for bipartisanship, and publicly stated that was their intent? What did the Republicans do with his bipartisan attempts on immigration? Where was his intransigence, other than a single statement? What was that statement made in relation to? Passing healthcare legislation, which Republicans were going to take no part in?
    C'mon you really are oblivious to 8 years of divisive rhetoric coming from Obama? LA never claimed republicans in Congress weren't guilty of the same but you are about Obama. If you can't recognize it, you never will.

    His speech this week was par for the course of his presidency, Republicans blocked but he never attempted to reach across the aisle either.


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  8. #1298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    C'mon you really are oblivious to 8 years of divisive rhetoric coming from Obama? LA never claimed republicans in Congress weren't guilty of the same but you are about Obama. If you can't recognize it, you never will.

    His speech this week was par for the course of his presidency, Republicans blocked but he never attempted to reach across the aisle either.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I guess you didn't read my post right below that one.
    So his speech at the U of Illinois was filled with divisive rhetoric?
    "assailing his successor as a “threat to our democracy” and a demagogue practicing the “politics of fear and resentment.”" "Threat to our democracy" may be overblown. Trump practicing the politics of fear and resentment divisive? I'd say its accurate.
    “None of this is conservative,” Mr. Obama told an auditorium of students at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “I don’t mean to pretend I’m channeling Abraham Lincoln now, but that’s not what he had in mind, I think, when he helped form the Republican Party. It’s not conservative. It sure isn’t normal. It’s radical. It’s a vision that says the protection of our power and those who back us is all that matters even when it hurts the country.” Divisive rhetoric? He's obviously not taking a shot at conservatives or Republicans. Divisive or a legitimate, arguable point?
    “It did not start with Donald Trump,” he told the college students on Friday. “He is a symptom, not the cause. He’s just capitalizing on resentments that politicians have been fanning for years, a fear and anger that’s rooted in our past, but it’s also born out of the enormous upheavals that have taken place in your brief lifetimes.” Divisive? He didn't limit the problem to conservatives.
    He also accused Mr. Trump of playing to bigots. “We’re supposed to stand up to discrimination,” he said. “And we’re sure as heck supposed to stand up clearly and unequivocally to Nazi sympathizers. How hard can that be, saying that Nazis are bad?” Divisive? I'd say its accurate.
    “There are well-meaning folks passionate about social justice, who think things have gotten so bad, the lines have been so starkly drawn, that we have to fight fire with fire, we have to do the same things to the Republicans that they do to us, adopt their tactics, say whatever works, make up stuff about the other side,” he said. “I don’t agree with that.”

    “It’s not because I’m soft,” he added. “It’s not because I’m interested in promoting an empty bipartisanship.” He said that “yelling at each other” would only further erode civic institutions and not appeal to voters. “We won’t win people over,” he said, “by calling them names, or dismissing entire chunks of the country as racist or sexist or homophobic.” Divisive?

  9. #1299
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    I guess you didn't read my post right below that one.
    So his speech at the U of Illinois was filled with divisive rhetoric?
    "assailing his successor as a “threat to our democracy” and a demagogue practicing the “politics of fear and resentment.”" "Threat to our democracy" may be overblown. Trump practicing the politics of fear and resentment divisive? I'd say its accurate.
    “None of this is conservative,” Mr. Obama told an auditorium of students at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “I don’t mean to pretend I’m channeling Abraham Lincoln now, but that’s not what he had in mind, I think, when he helped form the Republican Party. It’s not conservative. It sure isn’t normal. It’s radical. It’s a vision that says the protection of our power and those who back us is all that matters even when it hurts the country.” Divisive rhetoric? He's obviously not taking a shot at conservatives or Republicans. Divisive or a legitimate, arguable point?
    “It did not start with Donald Trump,” he told the college students on Friday. “He is a symptom, not the cause. He’s just capitalizing on resentments that politicians have been fanning for years, a fear and anger that’s rooted in our past, but it’s also born out of the enormous upheavals that have taken place in your brief lifetimes.” Divisive? He didn't limit the problem to conservatives.
    He also accused Mr. Trump of playing to bigots. “We’re supposed to stand up to discrimination,” he said. “And we’re sure as heck supposed to stand up clearly and unequivocally to Nazi sympathizers. How hard can that be, saying that Nazis are bad?” Divisive? I'd say its accurate.
    “There are well-meaning folks passionate about social justice, who think things have gotten so bad, the lines have been so starkly drawn, that we have to fight fire with fire, we have to do the same things to the Republicans that they do to us, adopt their tactics, say whatever works, make up stuff about the other side,” he said. “I don’t agree with that.”

    “It’s not because I’m soft,” he added. “It’s not because I’m interested in promoting an empty bipartisanship.” He said that “yelling at each other” would only further erode civic institutions and not appeal to voters. “We won’t win people over,” he said, “by calling them names, or dismissing entire chunks of the country as racist or sexist or homophobic.” Divisive?
    Look! You can select parts of a speech to paint the picture you want... and so can I:

    "my administration couldn't reverse 40-year trends in only eight years, especially once Republicans took over the House of Representatives and decided to block everything we did, even things they used to support."

    "But over the past few decades, the politics of division, of resentment and paranoia has unfortunately found a home in the Republican Party."

    "What happened to the Republican Party? Its central organizing principle in foreign policy was the fight against Communism, and now they're cozying up to the former head of the KGB, actively blocking legislation that would defend our elections from Russian attack. What happened? "

    Meh... I'm getting bored but if you really read the speech and think it is a unifying speech... you've got marbles in your head. And I don't disagree with what he says in a lot of instances but it is another in a long line of divisive speeches.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #1300
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Look! You can select parts of a speech to paint the picture you want... and so can I:

    "my administration couldn't reverse 40-year trends in only eight years, especially once Republicans took over the House of Representatives and decided to block everything we did, even things they used to support."

    "But over the past few decades, the politics of division, of resentment and paranoia has unfortunately found a home in the Republican Party."

    "What happened to the Republican Party? Its central organizing principle in foreign policy was the fight against Communism, and now they're cozying up to the former head of the KGB, actively blocking legislation that would defend our elections from Russian attack. What happened? "

    Meh... I'm getting bored but if you really read the speech and think it is a unifying speech... you've got marbles in your head. And I don't disagree with what he says in a lot of instances but it is another in a long line of divisive speeches.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You're right. That's what I get for relying on the NYT for a summary of the speech. Not at all unifying. At the same time, I agree with him, but in these times comments limited to the Trump phenomenon would be best.

  11. #1301
    I gotta admit, I didn't think Manafort was going to flip at this point, thought he would ride it out longer, counting on a pardon. (I wonder if he's calculating that Trump may not be there to pardon him?)

  12. #1302

  13. #1303
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    I gotta admit, I didn't think Manafort was going to flip at this point, thought he would ride it out longer, counting on a pardon. (I wonder if he's calculating that Trump may not be there to pardon him?)
    NPR: “Paul Manafort’s cooperation agreement with the special counsel does not include matters involving the Trump campaign, according to a person familiar with the case.”

    But the comments to the above tweet suggest that NPR's source had it wrong.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-14-2018 at 01:52 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #1304
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    There was a 538 Podcast about the Manafort situation where they discussed this very question. The conclusion they came to was that you can't say "I'll answer any questions about the Ukraine, but I won't talk about my time on the Trump campaign". It is a blanket cooperation agreement, which also means he can't plead the Fifth Amendment on anything.

  15. #1305
    There isn't necessarily an inconsistency between NPR's statement and the scope of the plea, if it is saying that preliminary discussions indicate he has little to offer on a charge of the campaign colluding with the Russians.

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