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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

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  1. #1
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    An interesting article on how Trump never actually expected to win the Presidency. He just wanted the adoration of running and the platform of losing to throw shots at people.

    It substantiates a bit of what I thought he looked like on Inauguration Day: Instant Regret.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ald-trump.html

  2. #2
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    A particularly interesting quote (for me anyway) on what is going with Trump in the White House.

    As soon as the campaign team had stepped into the White House, Walsh saw, it had gone from managing Trump to the expectation of being managed by him. Yet the president, while proposing the most radical departure from governing and policy norms in several generations, had few specific ideas about how to turn his themes and vitriol into policy. And making suggestions to him was deeply complicated. Here, arguably, was the central issue of the Trump presidency, informing every aspect of Trumpian policy and leadership: He didn’t process information in any conventional sense. He didn’t read. He didn’t really even skim. Some believed that for all practical purposes he was no more than semi-*literate. He trusted his own expertise *— no matter how paltry or irrelevant — more than anyone else’s. He was often confident, but he was just as often paralyzed, less a savant than a figure of sputtering and dangerous insecurities, whose instinctive response was to lash out and behave as if his gut, however confused, was in fact in some clear and forceful way telling him what to do. It was, said Walsh, “like trying to figure out what a child wants.”

  3. #3
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Its not binary; you can loathe Trump and Bannon at the same time. Trump made this Faustian bargain in hiring and listening to Bannon, picked his poison, lay with dogs, has chickens coming home to roost, among many metaphors.
    Yep.

    "Gather ye scoundrels while ye may,
    Old Time is still a-flying;
    And this same jerk that smiles today
    Tomorrow will be a-lying."

    (Apologies to Robert Herrick.)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #4
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...-house-1071504

    If this article is even 10% true it is terrifying.

    Regarding Trump and his inability to listen to anyone nor accept others ideas, I worked with a person remarkably like him once. She knew that she could say any lie and repeat it enough that people would start believing her, and she would say whatever she had to, even if she had said something just the opposite literally only moments before. She had to be the focal point and always wanted desperately to be the smartest person in the room, or at least perceived to be. Even a slight disagreement with her would level her fire at you and she would attack all guns blazing and relentlessly. It was surprisingly effective, particularly with the owner of the company.

    People soon figured out that all you needed to do with her is fawn over her and praise her for her genius and she would quickly become your ally. Best of all, all you had to do to get her backing was explain your idea, and just begin by saying it was really her idea. She would quickly absorb your lie as her own and suddenly be your advocate. It was entertaining to watch. But every time I hear Trump speak or read about how he conducts his life I think of her. Two massive narcissists, two epic disasters.

    I bet my story is hardly unique, we've all ran into different levels of this. I think there are actually a lot of Trumps in the world.

  5. #5
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...-house-1071504

    If this article is even 10% true it is terrifying.

    Regarding Trump and his inability to listen to anyone nor accept others ideas, I worked with a person remarkably like him once. She knew that she could say any lie and repeat it enough that people would start believing her, and she would say whatever she had to, even if she had said something just the opposite literally only moments before. She had to be the focal point and always wanted desperately to be the smartest person in the room, or at least perceived to be. Even a slight disagreement with her would level her fire at you and she would attack all guns blazing and relentlessly. It was surprisingly effective, particularly with the owner of the company.

    People soon figured out that all you needed to do with her is fawn over her and praise her for her genius and she would quickly become your ally. Best of all, all you had to do to get her backing was explain your idea, and just begin by saying it was really her idea. She would quickly absorb your lie as her own and suddenly be your advocate. It was entertaining to watch. But every time I hear Trump speak or read about how he conducts his life I think of her. Two massive narcissists, two epic disasters.

    I bet my story is hardly unique, we've all ran into different levels of this. I think there are actually a lot of Trumps in the world.
    The hallmarks of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) are grandiosity, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration. People with this condition are frequently described as arrogant, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. They may also concentrate on grandiose fantasies (e.g. their own success, beauty, brilliance) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment. These characteristics typically begin in early adulthood and must be consistently evident in multiple contexts, such as at work and in relationships. People with narcissistic personality disorder believe they are superior or special, and often try to associate with other people they believe are unique or gifted in some way. This association enhances their self-esteem, which is typically quite fragile underneath the surface. Individuals with NPD seek excessive admiration and attention in order to know that others think highly of them. Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder have difficulty tolerating criticism or defeat, and may be left feeling humiliated or empty when they experience an "injury" in the form of criticism or rejection.

    Symptoms

    Narcissistic personality disorder is indicated by five or more of the following symptoms:


    • Exaggerates own importance
    • Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence or ideal romance
    • Believes he or she is special and can only be understood by other special people or institutions
    • Requires constant attention and admiration from others
    • Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
    • Takes advantage of others to reach his or her own goals
    • Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy
    • Is often envious of others or believes other people are envious of him or her
    • Shows arrogant behaviors and attitudes



    https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder

    I see this all the time in problem physicians I help clients deal with. Often brilliant clinicians have NPD. It's tragic to watch as they wreck their careers and hurt people around them, including their patients.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #6
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Oh, please.


    Bannon Offers Multiple Apologies for Quotes in Wolff Book

    https://www.lifezette.com/polizette/...in-wolff-book/
    Bannon Offers Multiple Apologies for Quotes in Wolff Book

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #7
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I interrupt the schadenfreude-fest here with some sober thoughts from the good old Wall Street Journal:

    The Book of Bannon

    Trump’s divorce from his former aide is good for his Presidency and the GOP.

    Washington is having another media meltdown, this time over the public divorce between Donald Trump and former aide Stephen Bannon over a new book on President Trump’s first months in office. Our reading is that the book tells us what everyone already knew, and the falling out could help the Trump Presidency and Republicans.

    The book is by Michael Wolff, which means it arrives with large factual caveats. Mr. Wolff has a history of combining anecdotes that are true with sweeping assertions that include no substantiation and are often merely his personal conclusions. The media know this, but Mr. Wolff’s quotes and stories reinforce the contempt they have for Mr. Trump so the tales are too good to ignore or try to disprove.

    Most striking, despite the juicy quotes, is how little new the book reveals. Everyone knew Mr. Trump was surprised to win the election, that he then tried to run the White House like he had his family business with rival factions and little discipline, and that the place was a chaotic mess until John Kelly arrived as chief of staff. We also knew that Mr. Trump knew almost nothing about government or policy, that he reads very little, and that he is a narcissist obsessed with his critics. Any sentient voter knew this on Election Day.

    The book is told mainly from Mr. Bannon’s point of view, and the Breitbart impresario is portrayed as thinking Mr. Trump is as much a dolt as Democrats think he is. He dislikes the Trump family, especially son-in-law Jared Kushner, who was a rival for influence.

    The book also makes clear that Mr. Bannon was a leading cause of the pre-Kelly White House chaos. He and the press corps have a relationship of mutual loathing but co-dependency. They use each other, and the media love to promote Mr. Bannon because he is a talkative source and a destructive political force inside the Republican Party.

    The press is also playing up Mr. Bannon’s claims, which he doesn’t deny, that Don Jr.’s meeting with Russians in June 2016 was “treasonous” and that Don Jr. and Mr. Kushner will be cashiered for money laundering. So the same reporters who think Mr. Bannon is a xenophobe and bigot now view him as a legal authority. There’s that co-dependency thing again.

    The surprise is that Mr. Trump kept Mr. Bannon around as long as he did, and the reason is probably what LBJ said about keeping J. Edgar Hoover micturating inside the tent. But Mr. Bannon fed Mr. Trump’s political paranoia and his worst policy instincts such as tearing up Nafta. Mr. Bannon resembles Pat Buchanan, a protectionist predecessor to Mr. Trump, in being at heart an American declinist. He rails against the present in favor of a more idyllic past. Recall the “American carnage” of the Trump inaugural.

    He also tried to conjure a grand theory of Trumpism that isn’t possible. The Trump appeal is a cult of personality that combines sometimes destructive populist passions for restricting trade and immigration with healthier instincts to revive the private economy and restore American strength in the world. For all of his demagoguery, Mr. Trump is no declinist.

    ***
    The President finally fired Mr. Bannon after Mr. Kelly came aboard and Mr. Bannon defied the new chief by attacking his colleagues in an unapproved interview. The White House has since become a saner place, notwithstanding Mr. Trump’s Twitter effusions.

    The Trump-Bannon divorce is therefore a political relief. The President’s worst mistakes have come from heeding Mr. Bannon’s desire to blow up the status quo first and pick up the pieces later—think of the travel ban. The President’s successes have come when he has bursts of discipline while pursuing the more conventional conservative agenda on judges, tax reform, regulation and foreign policy.

    If Mr. Bannon’s assaults on his former boss marginalize Mr. Bannon a player in Republican politics, as they certainly should, so much the better for the 2018 elections and the rest of the Trump Presidency.

    Appeared in the January 5, 2018, print edition.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-boo...non-1515111214

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I interrupt the schadenfreude-fest here with some sober thoughts from the good old Wall Street Journal:



    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-boo...non-1515111214
    The party was going to coalesce around Trump after Roy Moore, and the retirements of Flake and Corker, anyway. It is Trump's party thru and thru. Bannon was pretty much neutered before this, but now his wont have Mercer money for insurgent candidates, apparently. That is in the short term; what happens in the longer term (i.e., mid term elections) is a completely different question. I think this book makes it that much harder on the margins to take Trump seriously or credulously, and to get his approval rating above 38%. It probably all turns on what evidence is out there to be discovered or disclosed.

  9. #9






    this was funny, to me anyway.

  10. #10
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    this was funny, to me anyway.
    I got a good chuckle out of it too.

    via GIPHY


  11. #11
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The clown show expands.

    Breitbart Owners Debate Ousting Bannon Amid Trump Feud - The Wall Street Journal.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/breitba...eud-1515100110

    It’s hard to rank Trump’s mistakes but hiring Bannon is at or near the top.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #12
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The AP English teacher both concerned and I had in high school (although I am much younger than concerned) taught us about critical thinking. In that spirit, here are a couple of liberal writers doing some of that kind of thinking about Michael Wolff.

    Paul Farhi, the WaPo media reporter:

    Michael Wolff tells a juicy tale in his new Trump book. But should we believe it?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...=.1cccab9f03f9

    The New Republic’s Alex Shephard:

    Michael Wolff’s Fire and Fury Is a Gift to Donald Trump

    https://newrepublic.com/article/1464...t-donald-trump

    In a world verging on madness, skepticism can be important. It helps me, at least, to keep my Trump era astonishment, shock, dismay, anger, and sadness in some kind of rational and emotional perspective.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The AP English teacher both concerned and I had in high school.....

    So you had Scanlan......some of us didn't peak in high school.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    So you had Scanlan......some of us didn't peak in high school.

    LA Ute seems to be saying he hasn't engaged in any critical thinking since Dr. Scanland.

  15. #15
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    LA Ute seems to be saying he hasn't engaged in any critical thinking since Dr. Scanland.
    I adored her. She is one of those teachers who left a lasting impression. So did Hugh Rush, Caroline Miner, and Lew Webster (despite his lazy approach to AP History). God bless them all.

    BTW, I think Dr. S. would like us to spell her name right:

    Obituary: Sylvia Bellamy Scandland


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I adored her. She is one of those teachers who left a lasting impression. So did Hugh Rush, Caroline Miner, and Lew Webster (despite his lazy approach to AP History). God bless them all.

    BTW, I think Dr. S. would like us to spell her name right:

    Obituary: Sylvia Bellamy Scandland
    I actually thought i learned more from Lew Webster than Dr. Scandland, even though both he and Brimley were extremely lazy, because of all the papers we had to write. That was great preparation for college, and not one of my kids ever had a teacher who made them write research papers outside of class, really. It is too much work to grade.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I actually thought i learned more from Lew Webster than Dr. Scandland, even though both he and Brimley were extremely lazy, because of all the papers we had to write. That was great preparation for college, and not one of my kids ever had a teacher who made them write research papers outside of class, really. It is too much work to grade.
    As lazy as Lew was in class (almost nonexistent during the second semester) he did read all of those papers.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    As lazy as Lew was in class (almost nonexistent during the second semester) he did read all of those papers.
    He graded them. Maybe he read them too.

  19. #19
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    “Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart,”

    Who said it. POTUS or Bart Simpson?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    “Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart,”

    Who said it. POTUS or Bart Simpson?
    In defense of Bart Simpson, I'll add more from the same tweet storm:

    "I think (what I've done) would qualify as not smart, but genius....and a very stable genius at that!"


  21. #21
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is a thoughtful piece that I guess my my liberal friends here will find persuasive on many points.

    The Tragedy of Bannonism

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...R5PM%20Actives

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #22
    Wait, I'm confused. I thought David Brooks wasn't a real conservative, la? Now all of the sudden you are approvingly posting his articles once he jumps aboard the Trump train?

    Very interesting...

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Wait, I'm confused. I thought David Brooks wasn't a real conservative, la? Now all of the sudden you are approvingly posting his articles once he jumps aboard the Trump train?

    Very interesting...
    There are 2 true conservatives in the world. LA Ute and Hugh Hewitt. And anybody who agrees with them on a particular issue in a particular instant.

  24. #24
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    There are 2 true conservatives in the world. LA Ute and Hugh Hewitt. And anybody who agrees with them on a particular issue in a particular instant.
    Pretty close, although I’ve got my doubts about Hewitt.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #25
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Wait, I'm confused. I thought David Brooks wasn't a real conservative, la? Now all of the sudden you are approvingly posting his articles once he jumps aboard the Trump train?

    Very interesting...
    Okay now, pay attention. I think Brooks has credibility on this issue because he’s an anti-Trumper who’s calling for a less emotional response to everything Trump does. When I’ve said Brooks is no conservative, that’s in response to people here (cough-cough concerned cough-cough) who claim, essentially, “Look, here’s a conservative who challenges conservative orthodoxy.” Even Brooks would not describe himself as a conservative.

    I can barely stand Trump. I try to separate my intense dislike of his style and of many of his policy positions from what his administration actually does, much of which is sound policy, IMO. (This isn’t easy for me.) When people go over the top in their criticisms of everything about him (an undeniably frequent occurrence) I try to restore some of what I see as reason to the discussion. That’s not a endorsement of Trump, who I think is a foolish man of low character. I am sad that he is President. He brings out the worst in millions of people, and we see that splashed across the Internet daily. Still, that doesn’t mean that everything emanating from his administration must be opposed, or that anyone who approves of any of it also approves of Trump or is a collaborator in evil.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 01-11-2018 at 09:16 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #26
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    “Democrats are usually eager to slap taxes on millionaires. But now, they’re so desperate to discredit GOP tax reform that they’re defending deductions for the nation’s wealthiest homeowners in expensive East and West coast enclaves.”

    https://nypost.com/2018/01/02/new-ta...n-for-renters/



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    “Democrats are usually eager to slap taxes on millionaires. But now, they’re so desperate to discredit GOP tax reform that they’re defending deductions for the nation’s wealthiest homeowners in expensive East and West coast enclaves.”

    https://nypost.com/2018/01/02/new-ta...n-for-renters/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Is it a win for you when your tax liability does not change but that of your neighbor goes up? I'm not a tax guy, but doesn't the landlord still get to deduct 100% of the property tax paid on the rental property as a business expense? I can't believe a real estate developer friendly Congress and President would limit that expense.

    Unless the Dems are suggesting that there should be no cap (I don't think they are) then the opinion of the author is wrong. The $10,000 limit certainly impacts many families that are not millionaires. I don't consider my daughters and their families who live in modest 20-30 year old homes in California and who earn about $150k per year millionaires. I know that on their 1800 sq. ft. homes that cost about 600k they pay property and state and local income taxes of over 10k. I don't have a problem with a limit, I think it probably should have limited the deduction to something like 15% of adjusted gross income or $20,000, whichever is smaller. I also think the tax bill should have reduced the cap on charitable deductions from 50% of adjusted gross income to 10% or 15% of adjusted gross income or $20,000, whichever is smaller. Giving is great, but I just don't believe that any other taxpayer should subsidize my charitable giving. I also believe that what qualifies as a charity these days simply allows those with means to create charitable organizations as a means of avoiding taxes.

  28. #28
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Is it a win for you when your tax liability does not change but that of your neighbor goes up? I'm not a tax guy, but doesn't the landlord still get to deduct 100% of the property tax paid on the rental property as a business expense? I can't believe a real estate developer friendly Congress and President would limit that expense.

    Unless the Dems are suggesting that there should be no cap (I don't think they are) then the opinion of the author is wrong. The $10,000 limit certainly impacts many families that are not millionaires. I don't consider my daughters and their families who live in modest 20-30 year old homes in California and who earn about $150k per year millionaires. I know that on their 1800 sq. ft. homes that cost about 600k they pay property and state and local income taxes of over 10k. I don't have a problem with a limit, I think it probably should have limited the deduction to something like 15% of adjusted gross income or $20,000, whichever is smaller. I also think the tax bill should have reduced the cap on charitable deductions from 50% of adjusted gross income to 10% or 15% of adjusted gross income or $20,000, whichever is smaller. Giving is great, but I just don't believe that any other taxpayer should subsidize my charitable giving. I also believe that what qualifies as a charity these days simply allows those with means to create charitable organizations as a means of avoiding taxes.
    I should have said that I found the argument that renters were benefiting from the bill pretty weak. I just liked the quote. Many liberals have a fit whenever high-income taxpayers get a rate cut. But here we have Governor Cuomo and Governor Brown, from two of the three or four most liberal states in the country, fighting for their ultra-wealthy residents.

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  29. #29
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Is it a win for you when your tax liability does not change but that of your neighbor goes up? I'm not a tax guy, but doesn't the landlord still get to deduct 100% of the property tax paid on the rental property as a business expense? I can't believe a real estate developer friendly Congress and President would limit that expense.

    Unless the Dems are suggesting that there should be no cap (I don't think they are) then the opinion of the author is wrong. The $10,000 limit certainly impacts many families that are not millionaires. I don't consider my daughters and their families who live in modest 20-30 year old homes in California and who earn about $150k per year millionaires. I know that on their 1800 sq. ft. homes that cost about 600k they pay property and state and local income taxes of over 10k. I don't have a problem with a limit, I think it probably should have limited the deduction to something like 15% of adjusted gross income or $20,000, whichever is smaller. I also think the tax bill should have reduced the cap on charitable deductions from 50% of adjusted gross income to 10% or 15% of adjusted gross income or $20,000, whichever is smaller. Giving is great, but I just don't believe that any other taxpayer should subsidize my charitable giving. I also believe that what qualifies as a charity these days simply allows those with means to create charitable organizations as a means of avoiding taxes.
    My wife and I, who combined don’t make $120,000, will be very close to paying $10,000 in state income and property taxes. (I don’t know the tax bill on my new house yet as it’s not done, but my house is less than $400,000 and I’ll pay somewhere between $2,500 and $3,000 in property tax most likely)

    Taxes are very strange things. In years past when my coworkers and I have compared taxes it’s been amazing how much more I’ve paid, because I don’t have kids.

    (As a tax aside, Utah has a car tax racket. Pay thousands in sales tax to buy the car, then pay property tax on it each year)


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  30. #30
    B/c real estate is generally expensive here relative to income, and b/c Utah is both a high property and income tax state, a lot of people who are not wealthy are going to exceed the $10K cap, maybe by quite a bit.

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