Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 145

Thread: School shootings

  1. #1
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956

    School shootings

    How can anyone not be heartsick over the Florida shootings — or any school shooting? 3 years ago my own daughter was senior in a high school very much like the one in Florida. My wife and I were talking this morning about how we’d feel if our daughter were texting us from a closet in her high school while a shooter was rampaging on that campus. It’s horrifying to contemplate.

    I’m not a gun owner or enthusiast. I don’t belong to the NRA. I’m open-minded about ways to deal with this problem. (“Problem” seems too small a word.). As I was browsing the related commentary today, I found this view persuasive.

    Without exception, these school shooters are notorious lost causes. Their families failed them. EVERYONE around them knows what’s going to happen, or at least very likely to happen. In this case, the shooter’s story sounds familiar including a very strange home life. Are we really going to blame guns for our communities’ abrogation of responsibility to do something about killer kids? Because it’s easy? Grief always takes the easy road, and there are plenty of self-interested politicians hanging around and more than willing to take advantage of it. But that’s hardly an acceptable response if we’re actually serious about stopping these school shootings.
    Let’s consider another option for a change: we need to commit these kids.

    Before you jump down my throat, here’s an uncontroversial newsflash: we’ve got a national mental health crisis on our hands which consists of legions of children and young adults lacking religion, parents, community anchors, or any of the other things which could ordinarily help compensate for a broken or absent internal moral compass. These kids are medicated, relegated, and reshuffled in the deck; sometimes they’re expelled, like the young man at issue in the Parkland shooting, but kicking a likely killer to the curb – and leaving him there to brood – seems like an objectively risky move.
    https://savejersey.com/2018/02/schoo...h-gun-control/

    (I don’t agree with everything this writer says here. For example, this is no time to be referring to “leftists that run our schools.“ I think we should have a holiday from name-calling, if only for one day.)

    What we cannot do is simply throw up our hands and say “Oh well, these things are going to happen, we can’t do anything to stop them.“
    Last edited by LA Ute; 02-15-2018 at 08:56 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #2
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    right here, right now
    Posts
    1,089
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    How can anyone not be heartsick over the Florida shootings — or any school shooting? 3 years ago my own daughter was senior in a high school very much like the one in Florida. My wife and I were talking this morning about how we’d feel if our daughter were texting us from a closet in her high school while a shooter was rampaging on that campus. It’s horrifying to contemplate.

    I’m not a gun owner or enthusiast. I don’t belong to the NRA. I’m open-minded about ways to deal with this problem. (“Problem” seems too small a word.). As I was browsing the related commentary today, I found this view persuasive.



    https://savejersey.com/2018/02/schoo...h-gun-control/
    its frightening to consider that we have simply accepted this as life today in the United States. I recall Columbine and how shocked everyone was. Yesterday's shooting will be old news in a few days.

    My fear is that there are so many guns in the system currently that any new gun legislation will only help slightly.

  3. #3
    My daughter is a senior in high school Sandy Hook and Aurora happened when she was in the sixth grade or so. She has lived in fear of mass school shootings ever since, including the sound of a fire alarm, and it gets worse with each occurence. This morning she told me that things wont change until her generation votes, because they all have the same fear.

    I said I hoped she was right, but that the biggest problem is that about 30% of the population votes for 70% of the Senate, and 70% of the population votes for 30%. The distortion is expected to get more extreme over the next 20 years. As long as the 30% tends to congregate in small, red states, I have little optimism.

  4. #4
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956
    Here is what interests me about this issue: What if we just left the gun-control issue to the side for a while and talked about other things we can do? Surely there is something we can do collectively, as a society, to stand up and say “No more.” I don’t know what it is, but we put people on the moon and explored the solar system and the galaxy. Surely we can figure this out, or at least make it better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Here is what interests me about this issue: What if we just left the gun-control issue to the side for a while and talked about other things we can do? Surely there is something we can do collectively, as a society, to stand up and say “No more.” I don’t know what it is, but we put people on the moon and explored the solar system and the galaxy. Surely we can figure this out, or at least make it better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    that is like saying "putting aside the cigarette issue, what can we do about lung cancer." The famous Onion headline comes to mind once again.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    How can anyone not be heartsick over the Florida shootings — or any school shooting? 3 years ago my own daughter was senior in a high school very much like the one in Florida. My wife and I were talking this morning about how we’d feel if our daughter were texting us from a closet in her high school while a shooter was rampaging on that campus. It’s horrifying to contemplate.

    I’m not a gun owner or enthusiast. I don’t belong to the NRA. I’m open-minded about ways to deal with this problem. (“Problem” seems too small a word.). As I was browsing the related commentary today, I found this view persuasive.



    https://savejersey.com/2018/02/schoo...h-gun-control/

    What we cannot do is simply throw up our hands and say “Oh well, these things are going to happen, we can’t do anything to stop them.“
    My feeling is that the problem needs to be approached from two angles. 1. Mental health. Yes, mental health is a major ingredient to these mass shooting events. We have to do better in our funding, response and treatment to those with mental health challenges. News this morning is that authorities had been at least alerted of this kid at some point and that I thought that I read he actually had a small history/diagnosis regarding his mental health. He was an orphan, twice. Adopted as a young child who then lost both his adoptive parents to death. So yeah. It does seem that we have some sort of mental health crisis on our hands. But, I'm doubtful that it's any worse today (percentage wise) than at other times in history. The difference is we just used to throw all of these people in an institution to live out their days in the comfort of cold cement. I think blaming these events on a lack of religion and/or parents is WAY too simplistic. But that's just me.

    Since the mental health situation is a tough and complex problem and won't be solved for many years, especially while Republicans are in power, that leaves us opportunity to address the second angle. (I apologize for the dig, but they've shown no evidence that investing in this problem is a priority for them.) Given the long term outlook of that, we also need to look at doing what we can to make these events as least catastrophic as possible. Bump stocks. It was a no brainer after 1 Oct. Seemed to have lots of momentum and even support from the NRA and yet, so far, nothing. This kid bought an AR-15 legally as an 18 year old. This blows my mind. He isn't able to legally purchase a hand gun until he's 21, but since the AR-15 is a rifle, he could buy it at 18, no questions asked. This seems like an opportunity to do SOMETHING and at least bump up the age to 21. Would it make a difference? I don't know. Could have made a different to one of the 17 families who have an empty chair at the breakfast table this morning. I don't see any reason for a normal citizen to need to own an AR-15, but putting a ban on such weapons is a longer discussion. Politicians can do SOMETHING now. Today. I'm so tired of the argument that "well, if they can't get access to a weapon of war designed to kill as many people as possible, they'll just find some other way to hurt people." Sure. And they'll be less effective. And that's something. I have a FB friend who teaches CCP classes who like to post news stories from other countries when a crazy person has used something other than a high powered weapon to try hurt as many people as possible. He always introduces the article with "But they say the answer is gun control." And the article typically says that one of two people were killed with a few other injuries. He never seems to grasp the irony.

    I was in the field yesterday for work and turned to AM radio to expand my exposure. Las Vegas' own Wayne Allyn Root. He started his hour with the shooting and pointing out the important details. 17 dead, ex classmate, registered Democrat and Facebook and Instagram were quietly deleting the kid's accounts that showed that he was a liberal while leaving up the picture of him in a MAGA hat. He then moved onto "the most important story of the day." A legal case out of New York where a property owner was ordered to pay several graffiti artists millions of dollars for painting over their work. The ruling was described as a constitutional crisis and an attack on Republicans, because they're property owners. In what I would describe as an odd juxtaposition of the previous owner, Mr. Root then when on an epic rant that if he were to ever catch someone vandalizing his property, his first reaction would be to stick a gun to the person's head and tell them to leave immediately. And if that person tried anything suspicious, he would shoot them in self defense. Blame kids with their violent video games and lack of respect for human life all you want, but this is the go to conflict resolution to many in our society. I find that alarming.
    Last edited by Dwight Schr-Ute; 02-15-2018 at 09:37 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    its frightening to consider that we have simply accepted this as life today in the United States. I recall Columbine and how shocked everyone was. Yesterday's shooting will be old news in a few days.

    My fear is that there are so many guns in the system currently that any new gun legislation will only help slightly.
    I used to wonder what it would be like to live in Iraq or Afghanistan and have to worry about going about your normal day when there are car bombs in the market or suicide bombers at the mosque. After 1 Oct. I found myself asking, are our situations much different? If you live in Europe or Australia where these things just don't happen, they probably look pretty comparable.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Here is what interests me about this issue: What if we just left the gun-control issue to the side for a while and talked about other things we can do? Surely there is something we can do collectively, as a society, to stand up and say “No more.” I don’t know what it is, but we put people on the moon and explored the solar system and the galaxy. Surely we can figure this out, or at least make it better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think there are many important questions to ask and study in each of these cases. I would suggest we start with the basics of every criminal investigation: First, Motive - what drove this kid to this action and what can we do as a society to address those issues and hopefully prevent similar actions. Second, Means - how did he access the means for taking this action (guns, ammo, whatever) and how do we address the access issues consistent with the 2nd Amendment. A corollary to this is, who facilitated him accessing the means for taking this action and is there something we can do to address their actions. Third, Opportunity - is there something we can do to take away the opportunity. I guess we could take deploy 4 or 5 National Guard members to patrol every school, every day in their community on a daily basis as part of their duties.

  9. #9
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956

    School shootings

    Republicans could take the lead on this. (Sort of like “only Nixon could go to China.”) It would have to be someone who’s politically safe or who doesn’t care about the political consequences. (There must be someone who doesn’t.) Even one significant step in the right direction would help.

    Concerned, I was just trying to ask whether we can find SOMETHING that’s do-able. Wholesale restrictions on access to guns doesn’t seem feasible right now. It’s an intractable debate.

    How about some creative approach to mental health that helps authorities identify dangerous people and prevent them from getting guns, without creating disincentives to seeking treatment?

    How about armed security in schools? Is compromise possible on that? It’s everywhere in Israel.

    Bump stocks? There’s consensus on those.

    I don’t know.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Here is what interests me about this issue: What if we just left the gun-control issue to the side for a while and talked about other things we can do? Surely there is something we can do collectively, as a society, to stand up and say “No more.” I don’t know what it is, but we put people on the moon and explored the solar system and the galaxy. Surely we can figure this out, or at least make it better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Speaking of mental health. Have you ever known someone with severe mental health issues? It's terrifying. Several years ago, I was FB friends with someone from an old singles ward. He was going crazy. Right there on social media for all of us to watch. He changed his name to Michael the Archangel. He'd have posts with more than a hundred comments. You open the comments and their all from him. Some where just innocuous gibberish. Some were angry. A couple were directed at specific people. My wife was disturbed and wanted me to unfriend him. I felt like I needed to keep an eye on him because I didn't know if any one else was. When his posts got specific about people, I felt I needed to do something. He seemed like so many of these kids that become a tragic news story. But what do you do? I was 500 miles away from a kid I hadn't had direct contact with in 10 years, who I had no idea where he even lived. I called SLPD on multiple occasions to report the activity hoping that someone could check in on him as a well check. I'm not sure if anything ever happened. It's terrifying. For the first time in years, I looked up his profile last night. He's apparently in Los Angeles these days.

  11. #11
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Speaking of mental health. Have you ever known someone with severe mental health issues? It's terrifying. Several years ago, I was FB friends with someone from an old singles ward. He was going crazy. Right there on social media for all of us to watch. He changed his name to Michael the Archangel. He'd have posts with more than a hundred comments. You open the comments and their all from him. Some where just innocuous gibberish. Some were angry. A couple were directed at specific people. My wife was disturbed and wanted me to unfriend him. I felt like I needed to keep an eye on him because I didn't know if any one else was. When his posts got specific about people, I felt I needed to do something. He seemed like so many of these kids that become a tragic news story. But what do you do? I was 500 miles away from a kid I hadn't had direct contact with in 10 years, who I had no idea where he even lived. I called SLPD on multiple occasions to report the activity hoping that someone could check in on him as a well check. I'm not sure if anything ever happened. It's terrifying. For the first time in years, I looked up his profile last night. He's apparently in Los Angeles these days.
    I’ve never known anyone who’s that ill, but I’ve known a lot of bipolar and severely depressed people. I know one woman who’s a smart, delightful person but who, when under stress and not taking her meds (the latter is critical) has suffered from psychotic delusions. When she’s in that state she thinks people are spying on here through the electrical cables in her house (among other delusions). She didn’t trust anyone but our bishop and me, and it took the bishop a month to persuade her to start taking her medication again. We were constantly worried that she’d hurt herself in some way, but she never met the legal standard, “a danger to herself or others,“ that would have allowed her to be committed for a few days and to receive medications. Even when people are in that delusional condition, giving them medications against their will requires a court order.

    So yeah, mental illness can be very scary and hard to address. But someone like her should never be able to buy a gun, and in California she can’t, at least not legally.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #12
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    5,008
    One year ago.


    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221


    President Donald Trump quietly signed a bill into law Tuesday rolling back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for people with mental illnesses to purchase a gun.
    The rule, which was finalized in December, added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and people deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs to the national background check database.
    Had the rule fully taken effect, the Obama administration predicted it would have added about 75,000 names to that database.
    President Barack Obama recommended the now-nullified regulation in a 2013 memo following the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, which left 20 first graders and six others dead. The measure sought to block some people with severe mental health problems from buying guns.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...say/340606002/
    The suspect in a Florida school shooting bought the AR-15-style rifle used in the attack legally a year ago, authorities said Thursday.
    Nikolas Cruz, 19, is charged with murdering 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, where he had been expelled for fighting, according to authorities.
    Cruz legally bought the semiautomatic rifle at a Broward County gun shop last February, law enforcement officials who weren’t authorized to discuss the matter publicly told the Associated Press. The gun, a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 .223, was purchased at Sunrise Tactical Gear, according to AP.
    I'm pissed.

  13. #13
    The problem with this is that people act like since there is no perfect solution we should do nothing. That is like saying, "Well, I can't cure cancer, so let's just not fight it..." So a proposal that everyone will hate, but just might do something:

    1. It is probably agreed that there are so many guns out there that we aren't going to get rid of them, and also that people feel strongly enough about the 2nd amendment that currently to ban guns in the US would lead to massive rioting. So why not limit the amount of guns and type of guns you can own before you need to get a license. Frankly I think any gun owner should have to get a license and register, but a place to compromise. Want to own more than three guns? Okay you can but you need to get licensed.

    2. Once licensed you need to submit mental health evaluations every two years. Fail an evaluation or don't submit one, your license and guns are revoked. Also you need to demonstrate that your guns are secured properly and that access to them is limited to you and other approved licensed people. So, if you have a gun safe, only you can get into it, or if you want your family to get into it too, they need to get licensed and go through the same mental health screening.

    3. Also, make it so that a person whose gun is used in a shooting has liability associated with it. I'm not saying they get convicted of murder, but perhaps a steep fine and loss of access to guns. That will cause some significant self-policing I think. Got a kid struggling with mental health issues? Lock up your guns.

    4. Ban high capacity clips, bump stocks, etc. basically things that make it easier to kill humans and don't show any purpose to improve hunting etc.

    It is far from perfect but it is a start. Let's try things, see what works and what doesn't and adjust from there. I also know that nobody will go for this, even though it allows you to own guns without registering etc. Nobody wants to bend in the least on this stuff.
    Last edited by Rocker Ute; 02-15-2018 at 03:07 PM.

  14. #14
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    The problem with this is that people act like since there is no perfect solution we should do nothing. That is like saying, "Well, I can't cure cancer, so let's just not fight it..." So a proposal that everyone will hate, but just might do something:

    1. It is probably agreed that there are so many guns out there that we aren't going to get rid of them, and also that people feel strongly enough about the 2nd amendment that currently to ban guns in the US would lead to massive rioting. So why not limit the amount of guns and type of guns you can own before you need to get a license. Frankly I think any gun owner should have to get a license and register, but a place to compromise. Want to own more than three guns? Okay you can but you need to get licensed.

    2. Once licensed you need to submit mental health evaluations every two years. Fail an evaluation or don't submit one, your license and guns are revoked. Also you need to demonstrate that your guns are secured properly and that access to them is limited to you and other approved licensed people. So, if you have a gun safe, only you can get into it, or if you want your family to get into it too, they need to get licensed and go through the same mental health screening.

    3. Ban high capacity clips, bump stocks, etc. basically things that make it easier to kill humans and don't show any purpose to improve hunting etc.

    It is far from perfect but it is a start. Let's try things, see what works and what doesn't and adjust from there. I also know that nobody will go for this, even though it allows you to own guns without registering etc. Nobody wants to bend in the least on this stuff.
    Clearly you are a communist sympathizer who wishes to arrange for the overthrow of our government and to facilitate that treasonous plan by disarming the public.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #15
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    5,008
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Clearly you are a communist sympathizer who wishes to arrange for the overthrow of our government and to facilitate that treasonous plan by disarming the public.
    He's not nearly conservative enough to be labeled like this.

  16. #16
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956
    This is a pretty decent column:

    How to Reduce Shootings

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...shootings.html

    The chart is very interesting.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #17
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956
    I just linked to a Nicholas Kristof in the NY Times. Now here’s an LA Times op-ed by a guy who apparently writes often at National Review:

    Every solution to mass shootings inevitably involves a serious trade-off

    The answers are not easy, and they inevitably involve a trade-off: accepting the unacceptable, or restricting our freedoms. The three big ones are freedom of the press (publicity gives oxygen to these kinds of acts, so restricting coverage will reduce copycats); the right to bear arms (guns don't cause human evil, but of course they make it easier to carry out); and due process (targeting potential mass shooters, or mentally ill people in general, is possible, but requires us to curtail Americans' civil rights before they have actually committed a crime)....

    As always, human beings are the real weapons of mass destruction, and the tools they choose are not the causes of violence. If we want to weed out people who might commit violent acts in the future, we need to scale back due process protections and incarcerate more people on less evidence.

    Although that too is a trade-off many of us would find it hard to make, we could plausibly target privacy laws that make it difficult to compile records on people with a history of threatening behavior.
    I’m glad to see some serious thinking going on about various facets of this issue.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #18

    School shootings

    As it stands right now if I encounter someone on the street with a gun it’s very difficult for me to determine if they can legally have it.

    I have no access to records which, if checked, would preclude someone from buying a gun. So if they’ve purchased it illegally and I happen to encounter them, I would have no idea.

    I can check for felony convictions that make someone a restricted person, but it is a difficult and complicated.

    Our gun laws are poorly written, as we’ve got 50 states with 50 different sets of rules.

    We even go so far as to restrict where law enforcement can be armed, and make it difficult for law enforcement to travel with their weapon

    My honest best suggestion is to implement a national license. All it would verify is your ability to legally own guns. It wouldn’t track what you own, but it would require a check every 2 years to verify criminal history and mental status. That would allow law enforcement a much better chance to intervene if someone who should not have a weapon is encountered with a weapon


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #19
    I fear the only way to make any real progress on some of the epidemics facing our youth (gun violence, drug abuse, drunk driving, anti-social behaviors and other issues......) is for a dramatic cultural shift, otherwise, we're just tinkering on the edges of the problem. The federal government is of limited use IMO. The real change has to begin at a much smaller point -- namely, with stronger families -- then stronger neighborhoods, communities, cities etc....

    I know this sounds pollyanna'ish and straight out of sunday school, but, unless we can improve family life, I just don't see how any federal laws will reverse this trend. Even if these disturbed kids don't have access to guns, they'll have access to a large van and mow down a bunch of innocent people at large gatherings. In Paris a couple of years ago, 86 people were killed and 450+ injured in half the time it took the Las Vegas killer to kill 58 and injure 450 -- and with a lot less planning.

    I'm not saying we don't take a multi-pronged approach to this and adopt strong laws, but, as a culture, we need to strengthen our families to reverse our current trajectory. I think we're miles away from anything that will work. Seems to me we're still in the finger pointing and playing the blame game stage of addressing our nations biggest problems. When was the last time we all came together to work on something? September 2001? And it didn't last long.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  20. #20
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956
    FBI’s near-brush with suspect in Florida school shooting draws scrutiny

    This is interesting and not reassuring. Then again, there are only a certain number FBI agents and resources.

    Cruz seemed to leave warning signs wherever he went. Everybody saw something. Everybody said something. It was not enough.

    “The kid was definitely a problem,” said Malcolm Roxburgh, who lives three doors down from the home in Parkland, Fla., where Cruz lived with his mother until last year. Roxburgh said Cruz threw coconuts into his back yard, slammed a book bag into the back door of his daughter’s car and threw eggs at another neighborhood resident. “He was always getting into trouble.”

    Jevon Cange, 21, grew up near Cruz and recalled that he exhibited strange behavior from the time they were little boys. He was prone to angry outbursts — he once threw a large rock at a neighborhood kid while they were fighting — and through high school he was morose, often expressing antagonism toward classmates.

    “He would always say how much he hates everyone,” said Cange. In a school where cliques were common, Cruz never seemed to find his crowd.


    Math teacher Jim Gard said that administrators had warned staff via email not to allow Cruz to carry a backpack on campus. Cruz was later expelled for unspecified discipline problems, according to local law enforcement officials.

    Neighbors said Cruz had been spotted shooting at backyard chickens and trying to kill a squirrel to feed to his dog. Police visited the teenager’s home frequently, they said.


    And an Instagram account that appeared to belong to Cruz featured photographs of firearms, including one showing a gun’s laser sight pointed at a neighborhood street. Another showed at least a half-dozen weapons laid out on a bed with the caption “arsenal.” A third appeared to show a dead frog’s bloodied body.


    But the YouTube threat about becoming a “professional school shooter” appears to have offered the clearest sign that Cruz was contemplating violence against people.


    Bennight, 36, who posts videos online about his bail bond business in D’Iberville, Miss., noticed the comment in late September. The father of seven school-age children, he found it disturbing enough that it didn’t feel sufficient to simply flag it as inappropriate.


    First, he tried to email an image to the FBI. When that bounced back, he called the local FBI field office.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 02-16-2018 at 10:24 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #21

  22. #22
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    5,008
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    I fear the only way to make any real progress on some of the epidemics facing our youth (gun violence, drug abuse, drunk driving, anti-social behaviors and other issues......) is for a dramatic cultural shift, otherwise, we're just tinkering on the edges of the problem. The federal government is of limited use IMO. The real change has to begin at a much smaller point -- namely, with stronger families -- then stronger neighborhoods, communities, cities etc....
    The Millenials are driving social change.

  23. #23
    The bottom line is this: if the inalienable rights or life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are indeed correct, and an amendment like the second one take those inalienable rights away for innocent people then that amendment needs to be adjusted or repealed.

    I’m not anti gun but I am done with the do nothing approach to stopping school shootings.

    Changes HAVE to happen. The time for debate and action is now. Congress needs to do something or be removed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    The bottom line is this: if the inalienable rights or life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are indeed correct, and an amendment like the second one take those inalienable rights away for innocent people then that amendment needs to be adjusted or repealed.

    I’m not anti gun but I am done with the do nothing approach to stopping school shootings.

    Changes HAVE to happen. The time for debate and action is now. Congress needs to do something or be removed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yet there are still millions who think the 2nd amendment is a right. Always will be a right. Regardless of any other right.

    I can’t drive a car without a license. I can’t drive a car without insurance. I can’t get many jobs without a license.

    Those who feel the 2nd amendment is set in stone will tell you everything is is a privilege. Guns are a right. If after all these deaths that hasn’t changed, I honestly don’t know what will. (And strangely, they’re all convinced that the free access to guns is all that keeps us free)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I’m not anti gun but I am done with the do nothing approach to stopping school shootings.

    Changes HAVE to happen. The time for debate and action is now. Congress needs to do something or be removed.
    There's a new dynamic, this time. School children attacking politicians via social media for doing nothing.

    We'll see where this goes, but this dynamic will join the acute anxiety suburban moms have on sending their kids to school each morning, whether they'll return, or be on CNN.

    It just might be the children that lead us out of this ongoing national standoff.

  26. #26
    We aren't even so far removed from times when we actually did things to stop shootings. After the school shooting in California in 1989 we banned foreign-made AK-47 and SKS type semiauto rifles, and Colt voluntarily stopped selling the AR-15 (they still sold them to police and military). Even the Brady Bill with all it's flaws was effective, as evidenced by the nearly 200% increase in Mass shootings and greater increase in gun deaths after it ended.

    Both of those laws were strongly supported by Republican legislators. But the ones we have today are not brave enough to stand up to the very small percentage of the population who resists all attempts to restrict guns. Perhaps they believe they will need their guns to 'stand up against tyranny' (Cliven Bundy-style?).

    Maybe everybody (particularly politicians) needs to see the damage a .223 round from an AR-15 does to a human body as it tumbles through flesh. Somehow, the people who can actually make a difference need to be horrified into action.

    The disturbing parallels between the recent Mass shootings (Pulse nightclub, the church in Texas, Vegas, this one, and most others) are the fact that the guns were purchased legally, and the shooters all had a previous history with domestic violence or animal cruelty. Removing guns (at least temporarily) from people with those in their history needs to a starting point in the conversation.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Yet there are still millions who think the 2nd amendment is a right. Always will be a right. Regardless of any other right.

    I can’t drive a car without a license. I can’t drive a car without insurance. I can’t get many jobs without a license.

    Those who feel the 2nd amendment is set in stone will tell you everything is is a privilege. Guns are a right. If after all these deaths that hasn’t changed, I honestly don’t know what will. (And strangely, they’re all convinced that the free access to guns is all that keeps us free)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think there is a fear that having to license or register guns with the government is an opportunity for them to seize them at some point. So why not set up citizen panels that don't report to government agencies but the people who do the licensing and mental health monitoring? Fund it through the licensing fees.

    But I agree with what you said 100%. I listened to some yahoo here locally saying that the reason there haven't been school shootings in Utah is because teachers are allowed to conceal carry on school grounds. First of all... bwah ha ha ha, you can't make this stuff up. Secondly, I've sent three kids to my local elementary school. My wife substitute teaches there. We know about every teacher there, not a single one is packing, I guarantee.

    Ma'ake said there is a different dynamic now. I sure hope so.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I think there is a fear that having to license or register guns with the government is an opportunity for them to seize them at some point. So why not set up citizen panels that don't report to government agencies but the people who do the licensing and mental health monitoring? Fund it through the licensing fees.

    But I agree with what you said 100%. I listened to some yahoo here locally saying that the reason there haven't been school shootings in Utah is because teachers are allowed to conceal carry on school grounds. First of all... bwah ha ha ha, you can't make this stuff up. Secondly, I've sent three kids to my local elementary school. My wife substitute teaches there. We know about every teacher there, not a single one is packing, I guarantee.

    Ma'ake said there is a different dynamic now. I sure hope so.
    You don’t register the guns. You just get a license that says you pass the background check. If you buy a new one you just show your license, no check needed other than to verify it’s still valid.

    Doesn’t matter what guns you own, the license merely says you’re good to own them.

    As for schools, the idea that teachers are the key is just ignoring basic tactical considerations. Giving someone a gun doesn’t mean they’re capable of responding. We wash people out because they can’t respond, they realize it. Without that kind of intense training weapons mean little.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    You don’t register the guns. You just get a license that says you pass the background check. If you buy a new one you just show your license, no check needed other than to verify it’s still valid.

    Doesn’t matter what guns you own, the license merely says you’re good to own them.

    As for schools, the idea that teachers are the key is just ignoring basic tactical considerations. Giving someone a gun doesn’t mean they’re capable of responding. We wash people out because they can’t respond, they realize it. Without that kind of intense training weapons mean little.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I agree.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  30. #30
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    15,956
    As long the 2nd Amendment is in place, I don’t know how serious limitations on gun ownership are possible. Repealing the Amendment would be virtually impossible, so gun control activists would have to hope for a Supreme Court decision that guts it. At best that would probably be a 5-4 decision and would cause a near civil war in the country.

    I think we need to take incremental steps. There seems to be a consensus that mentally unstable people should not be able to own guns. I think we can work with that and get somewhere.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •