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Thread: School shootings

  1. #91
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Interesting. We had a bishop who was a Los Angeles PD sergeant and he carried while on the premises when we had a guy making threats. Not sure if he got permission or if he just did it. There are a ton of LAPD officers who are LDS in L.A.

    I think if LEOs were called to a church building there'd be no problem with them bringing weapons.
    In Utah on duty vs off duty have different rules in state law. If we’re on we can carry anywhere, save federal court, but that’s a whole different ball of wax


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  2. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Actually LEOs can carry their weapons. "The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within [church] walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law." HB1 8.4.5

    The officers in my ward always carry.

    Given the amount of LDS people who have conceal carry permits, I fully support that they can't bring their guns to church. That is a recipe for disaster.
    We also have the perfect defense, if an active shooter did come into the chapel, we'd just ask the high councilor to just start his talk over and lull the shooter to sleep. Sorry Brian.
    Last edited by Rocker Ute; 02-22-2018 at 03:56 PM.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Interesting. We had a bishop who was a Los Angeles PD sergeant and he carried while on the premises when we had a guy making threats. Not sure if he got permission or if he just did it. There are a ton of LAPD officers who are LDS in L.A.

    I think if LEOs were called to a church building there'd be no problem with them bringing weapons.
    Yes, there is no problem in that regard. As mentioned, the LEOs in my ward almost always carry.

  4. #94
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Given the amount of LDS people who have conceal carry permits, I fully support that they can't bring their guns to church. That is a recipe for disaster.
    Yes, high priests group discussions can get pretty heated.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Yes, high priests group discussions can get pretty heated.

    Since I can't carry a weapon in church I carry a Book of Mormon over my heart. Not because I believe it would provide divine protection, or even that I want it to be close to my heart, but because were I to be shot there the bullet would undoubtedly be stopped. Nothing gets through 2 Nephi.

  6. #96
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Since I can't carry a weapon in church I carry a Book of Mormon over my heart. Not because I believe it would provide divine protection, or even that I want it to be close to my heart, but because were I to be shot there the bullet would undoubtedly be stopped. Nothing gets through 2 Nephi.
    You should take your material on the road man. Great stuff.


  7. #97
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    My general feeling about teachers and guns:

    1. I have a hard time thinking of any teachers who would want to carry a gun in school. That's just not them. So even if you allow it, very few will do it.

    2. Who is going to pay for all the training and guns? Teacher's can't even afford to have art supplies.

    3. Along the same lines as #2, if you're going to add security, who is going to pay the salary for the added security?

  8. #98
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    My general feeling about teachers and guns:

    1. I have a hard time thinking of any teachers who would want to carry a gun in school. That's just not them. So even if you allow it, very few will do it.

    2. Who is going to pay for all the training and guns? Teacher's can't even afford to have art supplies.

    3. Along the same lines as #2, if you're going to add security, who is going to pay the salary for the added security?
    In Utah most high schools have an officer assigned to them already. Granite district has its own police force as well.

    Honestly, I don’t think there’s much that can change on the response and deterrent end. Unfortunately those looking at this with the “guns deter people” think that way because the average person doesn’t want to get shot. Someone going in to shoot in a school is long past the point where they care what happens to them. Most are already planning to die in the process.


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  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    In Utah most high schools have an officer assigned to them already. Granite district has its own police force as well.

    Honestly, I don’t think there’s much that can change on the response and deterrent end. Unfortunately those looking at this with the “guns deter people” think that way because the average person doesn’t want to get shot. Someone going in to shoot in a school is long past the point where they care what happens to them. Most are already planning to die in the process.


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    I suppose by now everyone has seen the news that the Parkland officer took a defensive positon outside the school and never went inside or tried to confront the shooter. He has resigned.

  10. #100
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I suppose by now everyone has seen the news that the Parkland officer took a defensive positon outside the school and never went inside or tried to confront the shooter. He has resigned.
    Which is what cops 20 years ago were trained to do. Cops now days are trained to go towards the gunfire. Have been for over a decade.

    Lt Oblad went in to Trolley Square by himself. That’s what we’re supposed to do.


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  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Which is what cops 20 years ago were trained to do. Cops now days are trained to go towards the gunfire. Have been for over a decade.

    Lt Oblad went in to Trolley Square by himself. That’s what we’re supposed to do.


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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always kind of assumed that the shining stars of the police force aren't being assigned as school resource officers (unless maybe they are getting to the end of their career)?

  12. #102
    [QUOTE=U-Ute;110424]My general feeling about teachers and guns:

    1. I have a hard time thinking of any teachers who would want to carry a gun in school. That's just not them. So even if you allow it, very few will do it........./QUOTE]


    I'm not an NRA member. I don't own a gun. Never have.

    Perhaps it isn't a good idea, but, I wonder if the idea isn't worth exploring further before dismissing out of hand. We've been in an active war of some kind for the past 16 years. That's a shatload of veterans that have gone through basic training, received extensive firearm training, are of sound mind, and work in school systems around the country. I have to wonder if many of them might voluntarily bring their training up to date and be willing to carry a firearm in a lockbox in their classroom.

    Still, the question remains, once on the scene, how will uniformed police identify the teachers from the murderers.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  13. #103
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always kind of assumed that the shining stars of the police force aren't being assigned as school resource officers (unless maybe they are getting to the end of their career)?
    Depends on the department.

    With us it’s an application, we have some squared away guys in some schools.

    The schedule is one cops like. Weekends off, flexible hours....but that’s just us. Who knows how other departments work it.


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  14. #104
    Arming teachers will lead to hundreds of stories, "A teacher shot a student today because (fill in the blank)". What does that look like from a liability standpoint? Arming teachers is one of the stupidest ideas floating around. People have been watching too many movies.

  15. #105
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Arming teachers will lead to hundreds of stories, "A teacher shot a student today because (fill in the blank)". What does that look like from a liability standpoint? Arming teachers is one of the stupidest ideas floating around. People have been watching too many movies.
    It's an idea that some schools might want to try. I agree it would take a big investment and isn't perfect. But it might be part of the solution in some places (and already is, I hear). if your solution is, simply take away the guns, I don't think that is realistic.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #106
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's an idea that some schools might want to try. I agree it would take a big investment and isn't perfect. But it might be part of the solution in some places (and already is, I hear). if your solution is, simply take away the guns, I don't think that is realistic.
    Yup. And we’ve also had a teacher blast a hole in a toilet in a Utah school because she wasn’t well versed in weapon handling.


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  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    So the aim issue isn’t that a pistol is more accurate. It’s phenomenon known as “sight parallax”. Because the sights on a rifle are usually a couple inches above the barrel the sight picture changes depending on distance.

    A rifle sighted at 100 yards will also be accurate at 50 and 25. But at 10 yards the parallax means the round
    will impact 1-2” lower than where you aim. It’s something law enforcement and military personnel train for

    By definition a handgun is a defense weapon. A rifle is an offense weapon.


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    That's not how we explained it, but my effort to clarify what he said would probably be a disaster.

  18. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Concerned, I was just trying to imagine Hugh Rush packing heat around the halls of Highland High. Couldn't do it.
    Dean Collette, though. Always packing.


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  19. #109
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Well, now, here’s an alternative point of view:

    I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.293a57517dbd

    Very interesting and thoughtful, and empirically based, but I’m still thinking more needs to be done. I think we need to come out the problem from every direction possible.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Well, now, here’s an alternative point of view:

    I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.293a57517dbd

    Very interesting and thoughtful, and empirically based, but I’m still thinking more needs to be done. I think we need to come out the problem from every direction possible.
    Completely misses the point as only a statistician can. Suicides, gang-related murder, and domestic violence are all tragic, and they are all not what this conversation is about. Did she do any statistical analysis related to mass shootings? Maybe, but she doesn't discuss it here.

    So, if not gun control, what? She has nothing to offer here, unless you count the same vague "gotta help people with mental illness somehow" plan.

    Forget numbers for a moment. There is strength is symbols. A strong, immediate response to a mass shooting sends a message that we care and that we are interested in solutions. Instead, we talk about what will and won't work for week and move on without doing a thing. We have nothing to lose with tighter restrictions - it's all upside.

  21. #111
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The poor guy ought to be on suicide watch.

    Armed police are guarding the home of the deputy who resigned over his lack of action in the Parkland school shooting

    http://businessinsider.com/parkland-...m_term=desktop

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's an idea that some schools might want to try. I agree it would take a big investment and isn't perfect. But it might be part of the solution in some places (and already is, I hear). if your solution is, simply take away the guns, I don't think that is realistic.
    Taking away guns is a solution that approaches maybe 5% of ever getting passed, and full compliance would never, ever be a reality. Very few serious people are even discussing grabbing a guns.

    Off the top of my head I can think of the following changes that would have substantial impact and would be acceptable to a majority of gun owners, most of whom are very responsible with their firearms:

    Set up a Nationwide database that includes state and local records plus mental health cues (similar to Interpol). Use this database for ALL gun purchases (including at gun shows/private sales) and for large ammo purchases (say over 100 rounds). We already have coalitions of states who share a database like that. This really should be at a national level.

    License gun owners, just like getting a driver license. States can decide what criteria to use.

    Register all guns. Feed the data into the Nationwide database, but actually hire excellent IT people and hack-proof the database. (FOUO/PII info, with severe penalties for disclosure). Require the background check and licensing processes to be complete prior to allowing the purchaser to take possession.

    Carry liability insurance for guns. Let the private insurance industry figure out risk and rates. Include 'failure to secure weapon in a safe' into the liability calculation.

    Beef up federal gun trafficking laws. The laws in this area are nearly non-existent.

    All gun transfers must be handled through a bonded dealer, and full background check completed before the transfer.

    I'm sure there are plenty of other good ideas. But we need to have a serious conversation without distraction from manufacturers' lobbyists.

  23. #113
    Also, if teachers are carrying guns then perhaps the mass shooter will just wear body armor. It is cheap and readily available.

  24. #114
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Taking away guns is a solution that approaches maybe 5% of ever getting passed, and full compliance would never, ever be a reality. Very few serious people are even discussing grabbing a guns.

    Off the top of my head I can think of the following changes that would have substantial impact and would be acceptable to a majority of gun owners, most of whom are very responsible with their firearms:

    Set up a Nationwide database that includes state and local records plus mental health cues (similar to Interpol). Use this database for ALL gun purchases (including at gun shows/private sales) and for large ammo purchases (say over 100 rounds). We already have coalitions of states who share a database like that. This really should be at a national level.

    License gun owners, just like getting a driver license. States can decide what criteria to use.

    Register all guns. Feed the data into the Nationwide database, but actually hire excellent IT people and hack-proof the database. (FOUO/PII info, with severe penalties for disclosure). Require the background check and licensing processes to be complete prior to allowing the purchaser to take possession.

    Carry liability insurance for guns. Let the private insurance industry figure out risk and rates. Include 'failure to secure weapon in a safe' into the liability calculation.

    Beef up federal gun trafficking laws. The laws in this area are nearly non-existent.

    All gun transfers must be handled through a bonded dealer, and full background check completed before the transfer.

    I'm sure there are plenty of other good ideas. But we need to have a serious conversation without distraction from manufacturers' lobbyists.
    Those look like good ideas to me. I’m a bit worried about a huge centralized bureaucracy with mega powers but that issue can be addressed in the planning.


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Those look like good ideas to me. I’m a bit worried about a huge centralized bureaucracy with mega powers but that issue can be addressed in the planning.


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    A background check is useless if it is incomplete, or takes too long. Too easy to miss telltale signs otherwise.


    Also all of this data exists in various databases. But those databases don't always communicate with one another.

  26. #116
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Wow. I wonder how the local flock will react to this statement. Especially the last line.




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  27. #117
    Wow. Big Russ bringing the heat!

  28. #118
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Wow. Big Russ bringing the heat!
    GBH said pretty much the same thing in 1999 and we didn't see much impact.

    LDS leader says limit gun access
    Arms, mental illness don't mix, he says


    Might be different this time. Our favorite Utah legislator is on the case!

    House Speaker Hughes: Utah lawmakers plan to hit accelerator on bills to prevent school shootings


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #119
    Apologies if this has been posted before on this thread:

    We are not the only wealthy, stable country with broad gun ownership, though it’s a small club. Switzerland provides a useful comparison, since it is the only place that comes close to our levels of gun ownership, with about half of our per capita firearm ownership. Their experience demonstrates the obvious realities.

    Though gun ownership among the Swiss is relatively common, regulations are tight by American standards. All guns are tracked. Many of the guns in private hands are issued by the government. Sale and possession of ammunition is tightly controlled. With a few exceptions for less-lethal weapons, every private gun sale is recorded.

    Thanks to careful regulation and lower rates of gun ownership, the Swiss suffer lower rates of gun related deaths and injuries than the US. Despite these constraints, Switzerland experiences much higher rates of gun death than their less-armed neighbors. In other words, regulation can help, but the connection between gun ownership and gun deaths is unavoidably linear.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisla.../#4709695c1fad
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  30. #120
    The church is also very liberal and common sense on immigration, particularly DACA and family migration. Hopefully this will also lead to positive changes.

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