Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 145

Thread: School shootings

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    [*]Smaller caliber but high energy bullets. Most use .223 or 5.6mm ammo. I don't know about the tearing of flesh thing. I think that most hunters would consider the caliber to be too small for big game, but good for small game[/LIST]


    .
    An interesting aspect of that round is the combination of speed, accuracy, and the fact that physics cause it to tumble as it strikes flesh, but punches straight through doors and armor as Diehard said. It does as much damage to a target as a hollow point bullet, which are illegal in warfare.

    The same international law that requires full metal jackets on bullets precludes the use of hollow point or fragmenting bullets. So the .223 bullet in a way is a method to bypass the law and get the same outcome. The larger 7.62 mm round (30-06) in FMJ hits with far more energy, but will typically pass through flesh in a more stable manner and won't tumble the way a .223 will.

    So in effect the round used by the AR-15 and M-4 (military version with the semiauto/tri-burst/full auto switch) is extremely easy to fire, is foolproof, and is extremely accurate. And the bullet tumbles through a target which incapacitates the target, allowing the shooter to pick off all the target's buddies when they come to save him.

    The gun is not useful for hunting because of the tumbling bullet. It is only good for killing large numbers of people, punching holes in paper targets, and for plinking non-game animals. But that first purpose is pretty glaring at this point.
    Last edited by NorthwestUteFan; 02-21-2018 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    An interesting aspect of that round is the combination of speed, accuracy, and the fact that physics cause it to tumble as it strikes flesh, but punches straight through doors and armor as Diehard said.
    I think the "tumbling" of the bullet is what I read makes it unsuitable for hunting, because it rips the flesh.

    I cant remember where, but I saw an analysis the other day by a pathologist who reviewed many of the autopsies of the Las Vegas victims, and described how horrible their injuries were. He repeatedly described very large wounds in the chest cavity, or explosions in the head or skull, caused by a "tumbling" bullet. He attributed the tumbling to the overheating of the barrel from the extreme rapidity of the shots (accentuated by bump stocks) but it sounds as if the tumbling may be inherent in the AR-15 to some extent.

    From the way you all describe it, it sound as though the AR-15 would not be a weapon of choice at long range, such as sniper fire or deer hunting.
    Last edited by concerned; 02-21-2018 at 04:13 PM.

  3. #63

    School shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I think the "tumbling" of the bullet is what I read makes it unsuitable for hunting, because it rips the flesh.

    I cant remember where, but I saw an analysis the other day by a pathologist who reviewed many of the autopsies of the Las Vegas victims, and described how horrible their injuries were. He repeatedly described very large wounds in the chest cavity, or explosions in the head or skull, caused by a "tumbling" bullet. He attributed the tumbling to the overheating of the barrel caused by the extreme rapidity of the shots (accentuated by bump stocks) but it sounds as if the tumbling may be inherent in the AR-15 to some extent.

    From the way you all describe it, it sound as though the AR-15 would not be a weapon of choice at long range, such as sniper fire or deer hunting.
    So let me clarify this.

    The bullet only tumbles once it’s inside something like flesh. It flies straight and true until it enters something like flesh. (Unlike say a .45 handgun round that travels at slow speeds and tumbles through the air)

    To understand why bullets kill we need to go back to what causes the damage.

    A round that just punches a hole and goes through and exits isn’t likely to cause a lot of damage unless it happens to hit a critical organ.

    But a bullet that causes cavitation will do severe damage especially in the chest. Cavitation is the damage caused by the energy waves leaving the round. When a bullet “tumbles” it increases that wave and thus causes more damage.

    Now the type of ammunition can play a large role in this. (There are rounds law enforcement uses which are made to dissipate energy to avoid “over penetration” to keep the round from exiting a target and striking an unintended target).

    I don’t have enough info to argue with the medical examiner in Vegas, but i doubt barrel heat played a role.

    As for a sniper weapon, with some sight/scope accessories you can use a well built AR-15 at distances of several hundred yards.....it’s a very accurate weapon in the right setup


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Diehard Ute; 02-21-2018 at 04:26 PM.

  4. #64
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    16,230
    So far I've learned a lot. Thanks, and keep it coming!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Frankly we should spend more time teaching people to think in a calm manner. Teach them good combat medical skills and (they’re very easy and would save a lot of lives) stock classrooms with good medical supplies.

    And, stop and think about this for a minute. It’s harder to buy sudafed or iodine than it is ammunition and firearms accessories.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I was watching the news with my kids a couple of days ago and we started talking about school shootings. I asked them if they ever do lock down drills. They said yes. I asked what they did during those drills. I was told that they lock the door, turn off the lights and lie on their stomachs and put their hands over their heads.That seems crazy. I have to take active shooter training every year for work. We are not instructed to lie on the floor with our hands over our heads. Are we failing our kids even in their preparation?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    An interesting aspect of that round is the combination of speed, accuracy, and the fact that physics cause it to tumble as it strikes flesh, but punches straight through doors and armor as Diehard said. It does as much damage to a target as a hollow point bullet, which are illegal in warfare.

    The same international law that requires full metal jackets on bullets precludes the use of hollow point or fragmenting bullets. So the .223 bullet in a way is a method to bypass the law and get the same outcome. The larger 7.62 mm round (30-06) in FMJ hits with far more energy, but will typically pass through flesh in a more stable manner and won't tumble the way a .223 will.

    So in effect the round used by the AR-15 and M-4 (military version with the semiauto/tri-burst/full auto switch) is extremely easy to fire, is foolproof, and is extremely accurate. And the bullet tumbles through a target which incapacitates the target, allowing the shooter to pick off all the target's buddies when they come to save him.

    The gun is not useful for hunting because of the tumbling bullet. It is only good for killing large numbers of people, punching holes in paper targets, and for plinking non-game animals. But that first purpose is pretty glaring at this point.
    The important assumption here is that people are hunting for the meat. I know that isn't always the case. One of the most popular hunting experiences in Texas is hanging out of a helicopter with your AR-15 and chasing pigs. There doesn't seem much concern about preserving the meat.

  7. #67
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    5,131
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    The important assumption here is that people are hunting for the meat. I know that isn't always the case. One of the most popular hunting experiences in Texas is hanging out of a helicopter with your AR-15 and chasing pigs. There doesn't seem much concern about preserving the meat.
    All in the name of solving the pig overpopulation I'm assuming.

    I weep at all the lost bacon tho.

  8. #68
    So to sum it up, an AR-15 is designed to kill people and in a rapid and brutal manner. And the general public needs it because???

    Guns are fun, I'm not against them at all. At my work we used to have a team building activity where we'd go to the range. But my entertainment is not even secondary to the safety of our nation. The logic behind this is like if going to the movies meant that people have to die to provide you the entertainment, but you are like, "Yeah, but I've got to see Black Panther!"

  9. #69
    In fact, I bet I could deter a home intruder better with an iphone app that imitates the sound of a shotgun pumping, than I could with an actual gun.

  10. #70
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    16,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    In fact, I bet I could deter a home intruder better with an iphone app that imitates the sound of a shotgun pumping, than I could with an actual gun.
    Maybe you could post outside your door your own version of this:



    Except it might say "Protected by iOS."
    Attached Images Attached Images

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Guns are fun, I'm not against them at all.
    Are they really that fun, though? There are so many things that are more fun.

    So I'm kinda against them as toys. I understand their value as tools.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    The important assumption here is that people are hunting for the meat. I know that isn't always the case. One of the most popular hunting experiences in Texas is hanging out of a helicopter with your AR-15 and chasing pigs. There doesn't seem much concern about preserving the meat.
    I can't even imagine a neck so deep a shade of red.

    But to be fair, the wild pigs are an enormous problem. Kill 'em all.

  13. #73

    School shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    I can't even imagine a neck so deep a shade of red.

    But to be fair, the wild pigs are an enormous problem. Kill 'em all.
    Why waste your imagination when YouTube is packed full of the action? Although, I guess you could always try and imagine that each pig is a 16 year old high school student.

    https://youtu.be/sx66ys4JG5o


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dwight Schr-Ute; 02-21-2018 at 08:32 PM.

  14. #74
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    16,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Why waste your imagination when YouTube is packed full of the action? Although, I guess you could always try and imagine that each pig is a 16 year old high school student.

    https://youtu.be/sx66ys4JG5o


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not watching that. Sick people.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Well, I am not a gun enthusiast and I only know what I read in the papers, but I did read this the other day--the AR-15 is not suitable for hunting, because of the way its bullets tear up the flesh of the animal. As you say, it is designed to kill large numbers of people quickly. I saw some interviews with AR-15 enthusiasts, and what seems to be the overwhelming reason for owning one is that they are a lot of fun to shoot at ranges, and people want to preserve the right to do that. FWIW.
    I heard one "expert" say on NPR that he uses an AR-15 to hunt coyotes, ground squirrels and other pests. Good for that. He also said that a pistol is much better for home protection-the aim is truer in close quarters, and it is easier to wield. An AR-15 is not his first choice.

  16. #76
    So some interesting stats... a Facebook share of an image I saw today was actually true...

    In 2016 - 267 people were killed by assault riffles, of over 11,000 gun related homicides.

    Now what I think is misguided about that graphic is that it is comparing all gun violence with the matter of today which is mass shootings. AR-15s were used in Parkland, Las Vegas, Orlando, Sandy Hook, and the Texas church mass shooting.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    I heard one "expert" say on NPR that he uses an AR-15 to hunt coyotes, ground squirrels and other pests. Good for that. He also said that a pistol is much better for home protection-the aim is truer in close quarters, and it is easier to wield. An AR-15 is not his first choice.
    So the aim issue isn’t that a pistol is more accurate. It’s phenomenon known as “sight parallax”. Because the sights on a rifle are usually a couple inches above the barrel the sight picture changes depending on distance.

    A rifle sighted at 100 yards will also be accurate at 50 and 25. But at 10 yards the parallax means the round
    will impact 1-2” lower than where you aim. It’s something law enforcement and military personnel train for

    By definition a handgun is a defense weapon. A rifle is an offense weapon.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    I heard one "expert" say on NPR that he uses an AR-15 to hunt coyotes, ground squirrels and other pests. Good for that. He also said that a pistol is much better for home protection-the aim is truer in close quarters, and it is easier to wield. An AR-15 is not his first choice.
    Yep. that is not hunting; it is vigilante animal control.

    BTW, here is an article this morning about the wounds suffered by the Parkland victims.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...n-guns/553937/


    also this on why the AR-15 bullet is so lethal


    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...lethal/545162/
    Last edited by concerned; 02-22-2018 at 09:19 AM.

  19. #79
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    16,230
    U.S. Support For Gun Control Tops 2-1, Highest Ever, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds

    https://poll.qu.edu/national/release...ReleaseID=2521

    As you all know - - I am a conservative Republican and no opponent of the Second Amendment. Still, like a lot of people, I see that a bunch of high school kids were murdered by someone who should not have had a gun. People (including me) are upset about that, and public opinion is clearly in favor of doing something. I’m just trying to understand what people think that “something“ should be. Simply enforce existing laws, or something different? Some gun enthusiast I know (not well) seem to be sticking with the old lines: Just enforce existing laws, no need to do anything more, yada yada yada. I think they are fooling themselves. The Quinnipiac poll results are quite remarkable.



    EDIT: Here's what Rasmussen Reports says. They lean conservative.

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control
    Last edited by LA Ute; 02-22-2018 at 09:37 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #80
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    16,230
    OK, these are interesting thoughts worth discussing:


    The case against arming teachers, and/or armed personnel in school:


    • This seems like a prime candidate for local control, and the kind of idea that works a lot better if all the parties “buy in” from the beginning. If you can build a reasonable consensus among local law enforcement, the school board, the principal, the teachers and the parents of the children attending the school think it’s a good idea, go for it. If you don’t have a consensus, the decision is likely to spur a lot of enraged accusations and counter-accusations of endangering children.
    • Think of all the teachers you had as a kid, and all of the teachers of your children. You can probably recall ones you would trust with a gun in a crisis and probably some you would not.
    • Depending upon the size of the school, the armed officer may not be in the right place at the right time. There was an armed officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High, but he was elsewhere on campus when the attack began and never encountered the gunman.
    • Accidental shootings are probably inevitable, and not just by teachers. Imagine there’s a school shooting, and a teacher gets his gun and starts looking for the shooter. The cops arrive and see a man with a gun.



    The case for arming teachers, and/or armed personnel in school:

    Forgive me for asking you to imagine every parent’s worst nightmare: there’s a man with a gun approaching your child’s school right now. How quickly will the local police get there? Maybe everyone will be lucky and the nearest patrol car is close, just a minute or two away. But maybe it’s five minutes, or closer to ten minutes.

    In that interim, the only thing standing between the gunman and your child are some locked doors and any adult wiling to confront the gunman while unarmed.

    If a teacher or security guard in that school has a gun, doesn’t that increase your child’s chances of survival? Suddenly the gunman doesn’t have impunity. He has to stop, he has to find cover, he has to retreat or refocus his attack from unarmed children and teachers to the person who’s shooting at him. That’s not a good situation, and there’s still danger to all of the innocent lives surrounding the gunman and the armed guard or teacher. But now the odds of the shooter being incapacitated are dramatically better.

    I’ve wondered about the “shelter in place” policy practiced at most schools. Is that really the safest approach when someone has arrived with murderous intentions?

    A 2013 report, put together by FEMA, the FBI, and the Department of Education, recommended, “If it is safe to do so for yourself and those in your care, the first course of action that should be taken is to run out of the building and far away until you are in a safe location.” It also recommended, “If neither running nor hiding is a safe option, as a last resort when confronted by the shooter, adults in immediate danger should consider trying to disrupt or incapacitate the shooter by using aggressive force and items in their environment, such as fire extinguishers and chairs.”

    We can, and should, have a long and detailed discussion about how to keep guns out of the hands of those with mental problems, endless rage, and malevolent motives. I keep pushing for a start with fixing the NICS background check system and more consistently prosecuting straw buyers. But a lot of the current debate features comments that amount to, “we shouldn’t be in this situation, our children don’t deserve this.” Indeed, we shouldn’t, and they don’t. But that doesn’t change what our situation actually is.

    Asking a teacher to be ready to confront a school shooter with a firearm is an enormous, almost unthinkable request. But is it any better to ask a teacher to be ready to confront a school shooter with a fire extinguisher or chair?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    OK, these are interesting thoughts worth discussing:


    [/SIZE]
    And this article is making my point without knowing it.

    It’s not as simple as asking teachers to be armed. Combat isn’t about the weapon, it’s about the mind

    And there is nothing about a killing in progress that isn’t combat.

    I spent 5 months being trained to do my job. The last two days of the academy are scenarios, using domination guns. (Real guns that fire paint bullets. They hurt like hell). Even with all the training I was still nervous doing it.

    3 years later we did an active shooter training in a junior high that was being torn down, less stressful due to experience but still stressful (yes they’re shooting sims at us and there are people firing AR-15’s with blanks throughout the school)

    In those stressful situations what kept me on track and able to deal with the threats was the hours of ingrained training. Your body goes to muscle memory under stress. Your fine motor skills are diminished, you get tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and many other things. There are ways to combat this, but you have to first train it, and then test it.

    I don’t have a huge issue with arming select teachers, but it would have to be select teachers who are willing to undergo a lot of training.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #82
    Had a church meeting last night where we reviewed the LDS Church policy for agitators or active shooters. The person reviewing it noted with an active shooter the standard, "Run, Hide, Fight" protocol and I said, "At my house we call that the home teacher drill, and practice it every time they knock on the door..." Stake President wasn't impressed.

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Had a church meeting last night where we reviewed the LDS Church policy for agitators or active shooters. The person reviewing it noted with an active shooter the standard, "Run, Hide, Fight" protocol and I said, "At my house we call that the home teacher drill, and practice it every time they knock on the door..." Stake President wasn't impressed.



    Nice one.

  24. #84
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    16,230
    Concerned, I was just trying to imagine Hugh Rush packing heat around the halls of Highland High. Couldn't do it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Concerned, I was just trying to imagine Hugh Rush packing heat around the halls of Highland High. Couldn't do it.
    Dr. Scanland, otoh

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Had a church meeting last night where we reviewed the LDS Church policy for agitators or active shooters. The person reviewing it noted with an active shooter the standard, "Run, Hide, Fight" protocol and I said, "At my house we call that the home teacher drill, and practice it every time they knock on the door..." Stake President wasn't impressed.
    Did they mention in Utah there’d be no one to defend them?

    The LDS church bans weapons on their property, including permit holders (and, depending on the interpretation, possibly bans law enforcement officers as well)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  27. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Did they mention in Utah there’d be no one to defend them?

    The LDS church bans weapons on their property, including permit holders (and, depending on the interpretation, possibly bans law enforcement officers as well)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That is also the case for most places of business (except for maybe the LEO part). I work for a large bank, and there is a strict no weapon policy. Probably more strict than the church, since I doubt Bishop Smith would be strict about enforcing the church policy if he saw a bulge on the waist of brother Wesson.
    Dyslexics of the world, untie!

  28. #88
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
    Posts
    16,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Did they mention in Utah there’d be no one to defend them?

    The LDS church bans weapons on their property, including permit holders (and, depending on the interpretation, possibly bans law enforcement officers as well)
    Interesting. We had a bishop who was a Los Angeles PD sergeant and he carried while on the premises when we had a guy making threats. Not sure if he got permission or if he just did it. There are a ton of LAPD officers who are LDS in L.A.

    I think if LEOs were called to a church building there'd be no problem with them bringing weapons.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #89

    School shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    That is also the case for most places of business (except for maybe the LEO part). I work for a large bank, and there is a strict no weapon policy. Probably more strict than the church, since I doubt Bishop Smith would be strict about enforcing the church policy if he saw a bulge on the waist of brother Wesson.
    In Utah the LDS Church actually registered with Utah to ban weapons, which legally defeats the concealed carry law.

    Businesses haven’t been given the same statutory ability to ban weapons. Churches are unique in Utah in that regard.

    As an aside, the only other church to do this is Kol Ami Jewish Synagogue. When I went to church our church specifically avoided registering as they did not want to ban off duty law enforcement from carrying

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Diehard Ute; 02-22-2018 at 03:49 PM.

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Did they mention in Utah there’d be no one to defend them?

    The LDS church bans weapons on their property, including permit holders (and, depending on the interpretation, possibly bans law enforcement officers as well)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Actually LEOs can carry their weapons. "The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within [church] walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law." HB1 8.4.5

    The officers in my ward always carry.

    Given the amount of LDS people who have conceal carry permits, I fully support that they can't bring their guns to church. That is a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited by Rocker Ute; 02-22-2018 at 03:52 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •