Political/Cultural Chit-Chat

[LuckyUte]

Aren’t my Democratic friends here just a little alarmed at the party’s leftward movement? Is there still anything like the Democratic Leadership Council that helped elect Bill Clinton?

Nothing about what the current candidates are talking about alarm me in the least. Why would Democrats be alarmed by Democratic ideas? It is about time Democrats talk about Democratic things. Republicans for the last 30 years have been "on-message" the whole time and it has worked for them. Democrats need to be "on-message" all the time and pound away about the expensive and inefficient health care system, about the inhuman practices of ICE, about Citizens United and the unchecked power of money in our election system, about gerrymandering and how it subverts our republic. I could go on and on, but you get the point. I am not "alarmed" at all that these things are being raised and discussed.

Oh, and BTW, the same question could be reversed... "Aren't any of my Republican friends alarmed that it seems that there is no such thing anymore as a Rockefeller Republican. I seems most are in hiding ceding the party to the far right?

[LA Ute]

Oh, and BTW, the same question could be reversed... "Aren't any of my Republican friends alarmed that it seems that there is no such thing anymore as a Rockefeller Republican. I seems most are in hiding ceding the party to the far right?

Sure. But I don’t want to change the subject just yet! 😉

And if you think the positions the leading Democrats are currently taking reflect mainstream Democratic ideas, that’s fine. We just disagree. Howard Schultz seems to disagree too. Otherwise he wouldn’t be thinking of running.

[LA Ute]

My current fantasy is that Trump declares victory and announces he won’t run in 2020. Then a real Republican could run against whatever Democrat emerges from the scrum.

[sancho]

My current fantasy is that Trump declares victory and announces he won’t run in 2020. Then a real Republican could run against whatever Democrat emerges from the scrum.

What is a real republican now? Almost all of the party followed trump into the mud. I'm not sure the rest of the party would back a never trumper.

[Rocker Ute]

What is a real republican now? Almost all of the party followed trump into the mud. I'm not sure the rest of the party would back a never trumper.

Most of those guys are opportunists and they will back whomever helps them gain and/or retain power. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you could talk to over 90% of republican congresspeople in private and confidentially they would tell you they don't believe in Trump, but he is their ticket to power now.

There is no loyalty among thieves.


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[LA Ute]

This is a thoughtful piece that fits here best, I think.

The Trumpification of the pro-life movement exacts a price

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.48357f141da1

[sancho]

about Citizens United and the unchecked power of money in our election system, about gerrymandering and how it subverts our republic.

I thought it was interesting to see these two issues right next to each other. On the one hand, you want to give government more control over elections, and on the other you see what government does when it has control over elections.

I don't love that you have to be wealthy to be in politics. But I don't really want incumbents to have power to regulate campaign advertising either. I don't know what to think.

[LA Ute]

What is a real republican now? Almost all of the party followed trump into the mud.

That generalization is far too sweeping for me to respond to it thoughtfully!

[sancho]

That generalization is far too sweeping for me to respond to it thoughtfully!

Okay, then in your daydream, when Trump decides not to run for re-election, who is the GOP candidate you want to run?

I know Rocker is right - the GOP will ditch him as fast as they can when he's gone. But they are tainted. Everyone voted for the Iraq war because it was politically expedient, but it came back to bite many of them (like Hillary) later on. Won't the same thing happen with all these Trump followers? At some point, they will be held accountable for selling out their principles, right?

[LA Ute]

Okay, then in your daydream, when Trump decides not to run for re-election, who is the GOP candidate you want to run?

I know Rocker is right - the GOP will ditch him as fast as they can when he's gone. But they are tainted. Everyone voted for the Iraq war because it was politically expedient, but it came back to bite many of them (like Hillary) later on. Won't the same thing happen with all these Trump followers? At some point, they will be held accountable for selling out their principles, right?

I don't think the taint will stick to any but the most devoted "followers," as you call them. (I did catch the slam.) Those are quite few in number among the high-profile people. Mike Pence probably has no future, for example. But Nikki Haley has a bright future. So do many others who held their noses and worked with Trump out of necessity and reality (he got elected and they could not pretend otherwise). Marco Rubio comes to mind. Maybe Ben Sasse. Who know? Romney might run. I think he's too old but with Bernie and Joe and Hillary among the credible Dem candidates, that's a tough case to make.

[Ma'ake]

I don't think the taint will stick to any but the most devoted "followers," as you call them. (I did catch the slam.) Those are quite few in number among the high-profile people. Mike Pence probably has no future, for example. But Nikki Haley has a bright future. So do many others who held their noses and worked with Trump out of necessity and reality (he got elected and they could not pretend otherwise). Marco Rubio comes to mind. Maybe Ben Sasse. Who know? Romney might run. I think he's too old but with Bernie and Joe and Hillary among the credible Dem candidates, that's a tough case to make.

I generally agree with your points & the folks who will be unscathed, but in some key demographic groups a harsher view will prevail: minorities, millennials and women. Democrats are fully capable of screwing up an anti-Trump backlash, but I think most Republicans have no idea the headwinds they're creating by playing the Faustian Deal game. The big question is how many Republicans will peel away from Trump as it looks like he'll be a liability in 2020. Even McConnell is speaking up on foreign policy and being opposed to a State of Emergency declaration. (He also admitted the serious uphill road the GOP faces with minorities and women.)

[Rocker Ute]

This is purely anecdotal but if my facebook feed is any indicator of how society in general feels by the relentless memes people post...

(And I post this simply because for the past few years I've heard many people -myself included- write with absolute certainty that there was no chance Trump could win or keep winning - with lots of data to back that up. I also heard with the same conviction about the certain death of the GOP and also now the death of the GOP among anybody but only the worst kinds of sexist, racist pigs.)

But, surprisingly WOMEN I know are posting conservative memes at a rapid pace. Most of these women are white and middle class, but that have been surprising how vocal. For liberal memes, that is primarily being posted by millennial-aged over-privileged white men who spend their days playing video games and arguing with each other online.

Certainly my circle of friends and relatives is not at all representative of people in our country, but I have found that observation a little surprising and very backwards from what I would have assumed.

Now among my circle of people I associate with in person, most women seemed pretty repulsed by Donald Trump, even among those who also had major distaste for HRC. Most men I know in person remain largely silent about it all.


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[sancho]

This is purely anecdotal but if my facebook feed is any indicator of how society in general feels by the relentless memes people post...

(And I post this simply because for the past few years I've heard many people -myself included- write with absolute certainty that there was no chance Trump could win or keep winning - with lots of data to back that up. I also heard with the same conviction about the certain death of the GOP and also now the death of the GOP among anybody but only the worst kinds of sexist, racist pigs.)

But, surprisingly WOMEN I know are posting conservative memes at a rapid pace. Most of these women are white and middle class, but that have been surprising how vocal. For liberal memes, that is primarily being posted by millennial-aged over-privileged white men who spend their days playing video games and arguing with each other online.

I believe you. There was an Atlantic article on abortion yesterday with a title that said something about democrats overplaying their hand. I think that's true on many issues. Certain aspects of the democrat platform resonate with most people, but they are unwilling to say/do anything against the extreme viewpoints that seem clearly wrong to most people. Abortion, race, insane SJW tweets, etc. Some of it is so over the top that it taints the entire party.

If conservatives are unfairly judged to be bigots based on their extreme fringe members, then liberals are probably unfairly judged to be idiots based on their extreme fringe members. Very few members of either party ever take a stand against the wrong ideas at the extremes.

I feel like a very different kind of voter in that I care about the person more than the platform. It frustrates me that people are willing to support someone like President Trump just because he will push a certain agenda. I feel like that attitude will cost us all in the long term.

So...yeah. I think democrats could blow this thing. George Will had a recent headline (behind a paywall, so I didn't read it) about how only democrats can cost themselves the 2020 election.

[Irving Washington]

That generalization is far too sweeping for me to respond to it thoughtfully!

Who would you have voted for if California was up for grabs in 2016? If Trump, would that have made you a Trump follower?

[LA Ute]

I generally agree with your points & the folks who will be unscathed, but in some key demographic groups a harsher view will prevail: minorities, millennials and women. Democrats are fully capable of screwing up an anti-Trump backlash, but I think most Republicans have no idea the headwinds they're creating by playing the Faustian Deal game. The big question is how many Republicans will peel away from Trump as it looks like he'll be a liability in 2020. Even McConnell is speaking up on foreign policy and being opposed to a State of Emergency declaration. (He also admitted the serious uphill road the GOP faces with minorities and women.)

I agree, except I will note that those who see any Republican's actions regarding Trump as a Faustian bargain will never vote for a Republican anyway -- with the exception of the most ardent never-Trumpers. J.D. Williams used to teach that candidates must look at the electorate as Saints (those who are your voters no matter what), Saveables (those whom you might convince to vote for you), and Sinners (those who will never vote for you, no matter what). You spend your time and resources on keeping the Saints in the flock and persuading the Saveables to vote for you.

For Republicans, the Sinners now are those who buy into the idea that Trump is so evil that any person's association with anything emanating from Trump's administration is a Faustian bargain that makes that person complicit in evil. I'll bet that this group of voters are the ones who bought the idea that "Bush lied, people died," called GWB "Bushitler," see the movies "Fair Game" and "Vice" as true history, and so forth. In other words, they ain't voting for no Repub, never! So going along with Trump on many issues is not going to cost Republicans those votes. They weren't getting those votes anyway.

[LA Ute]

Who would you have voted for if California was up for grabs in 2016? If Trump, would that have made you a Trump follower?

It would have made me a nauseated realist.

[sancho]

For Republicans, the Sinners now are those who buy into the idea that Trump is so evil that any person's association with anything emanating from Trump's administration makes that person complicit in evil. I'll bet that this group of voters are the ones who bought the idea that "Bush lied, people died," called GWB "Bushitler," see the movies "Fair Game" and "Vice" expressions of true history, and so forth. In other words, they ain't voting for no Repub, never!

I think following Trump makes a person complicit in the damage he is doing, but nothing else in your description applies to me. I think that's true of most never Trumpers.

I just don't understand how the Trump trade off makes sense to people.

[sancho]

It would have made me a nauseated realist.

an unhappy follower?

[Rocker Ute]

Another thing to consider regarding the taint of Trump is the reality of how people get elected and why a group as a whole does not necessarily reflect the will of the people with its parts and Utah is a stark example of this.

Ask just about anyone in Utah and they'll agree that the super-majority we have here is not particularly healthy and that frequently the state legislature acts in a way that they aren't pleased with or is more extreme than their personal views. If you don't believe that see how we voted on medical marijuana and expanded Medicaid, and how most people feel about local liquor laws. Yet when it comes down to who our citizens have to vote for individually they'll continue to vote for the conservative neighbor they know, versus the democrat candidate, keeping that issue rolling.

The same happens on a national scale. Poll the people of Utah or any state on whether they are happy with what congress is doing and the disapproval is dramatic - they are routinely hated. Poll the constituents on their individual congresspeople and you'll typically get a favorable approval rating.

So while the state of Utah is down on Trump and upset with congress, they'll continue to support Mike and Mitt, Stewart, Bishop, Curtis and McAdams. Mike Lee and Chris Stewart have been pretty repugnant when it comes to how they've aligned with Trump in my opinion - yet they will be unscathed even if Trump turns out to be the dark lord himself.


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[LA Ute]

an unhappy follower?

Do you think voting for a candidate makes the voter a follower of the candidate? If so, what does "follower" mean to you?

[sancho]

The same happens on a national scale. Poll the people of Utah or any state on whether they are happy with what congress is doing and the disapproval is dramatic - they are routinely hated. Poll the constituents on their individual congresspeople and you'll typically get a favorable approval rating.

Yes, no taint is powerful enough to overcome belonging to a political party. Most folks belong to a party for life, and nothing will convince them to change. For a while, I hoped Utahns' religious principles would be strong enough to overcome their political principles, but I was wrong. It was a disappointing realization.

[sancho]

Do you think voting for a candidate makes the voter a follower of the candidate? If so, what does "follower" mean to you?

I guess I was just defining it in that way, yes. I think that you maybe interpreted it to mean more, like a disciple or something. That's why you read something sinister into the word when I used it yesterday even though I didn't intend what you thought I did.

Look, I have been politically apathetic most of my life. I care about issues, but I can see both sides on most issues. I can't really see both sides on Trump. I can only see people who would vote for anything or anyone as long as it's not something or someone from the opposite political party.

[LA Ute]

I guess I was just defining it in that way, yes. I think that you maybe interpreted it to mean more, like a disciple or something. That's why you read something sinister into the word when I used it yesterday even though I didn't intend what you thought I did.

Look, I have been politically apathetic most of my life. I care about issues, but I can see both sides on most issues. I can't really see both sides on Trump. I can only see people who would vote for anything or anyone as long as it's not something or someone from the opposite political party.

Many people vote ideologically. I vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. In CA we have no Republicans on the ballot anymore, so I vote for the most conservative Democrat. Same with City Counsel elections.

[Rocker Ute]

Many people vote ideologically. I vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. In CA we have no Republicans on the ballot anymore, so I vote for the most conservative Democrat. Same with City Counsel elections.

I remember when I was getting voting age my dad advised me to vote for the candidates whose principles most closely aligned with mine, and that policy was secondary. In other words, vote for people who are good first, then pick their policies second, because good people will typically do the right things regardless of position. I thought that was pretty sage advice.

The problem with this though, and maybe this just shows how jaded I am, but it is increasingly difficult to find politicians who are actually good people. Rotten politicians in the Republican party here in Utah (and some personal interactions) are what drove me from the party. But since then there really isn't a party that lines up very well with my own principles. I think that is actually true for most Americans.

[LA Ute]

I remember when I was getting voting age my dad advised me to vote for the candidates whose principles most closely aligned with mine, and that policy was secondary. In other words, vote for people who are good first, then pick their policies second, because good people will typically do the right things regardless of position. I thought that was pretty sage advice.

The problem with this though, and maybe this just shows how jaded I am, but it is increasingly difficult to find politicians who are actually good people. Rotten politicians in the Republican party here in Utah (and some personal interactions) are what drove me from the party. But since then there really isn't a party that lines up very well with my own principles. I think that is actually true for most Americans.

I agree. I just try to find the best person who is closest to what I think are good principles. I think it is important to vote. It is conceivable that someday the choices are so bad that I will not vote for anyone, for any office, but we're a long way away from a situation that bad. I won't vote for Trump in 2020, or ever.

[mUUser]

Many people vote ideologically. I vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. In CA we have no Republicans on the ballot anymore, so I vote for the most conservative Democrat. Same with City Counsel elections.

This is correct. A person's character is not irrelevant, however, which is why I couldn't cast a vote for either Trump or Clinton. I don't see much of an improvement in the 2020 field as of now. Trump, as well as Harris, Booker, Biden, Warren, Sanders are simply non-starters....they aren't getting my vote. Period. Keeping an eye on Schultz, Bloomberg & Kasich. Maybe we can convince Joe Lieberman or Joe Manchin to enter the race as well. Maybe Manchin could enter as a democrat and solve all problems.

[sancho]

Trump, as well as Harris, Booker, Biden, Warren, Sanders are simply non-starters....they aren't getting my vote. Period.

Trump for character reasons, and all the others for ideological reasons? Certainly none of the democrats have character issues on the scale of Trump (at least that we are aware of), right?

[LA Ute]

Trump for character reasons, and all the others for ideological reasons? Certainly none of the democrats have character issues on the scale of Trump (at least that we are aware of), right?

Trump’s behavior is so far below any acceptable standard that we’d better not start using him for one.

[sancho]

Trump’s behavior is so far below any acceptable standard that we’d better not start using him for one.

Sure, but that's the choice ahead of us. Trump's lack of quality/ability/dignity compared to whatever you think about ________'s platform.

Plus, by electing him, we lowered the bar on acceptable standards. I'm not sure we can easily reset the bar.

[Rocker Ute]

Sure, but that's the choice ahead of us. Trump's lack of quality/ability/dignity compared to whatever you think about ________'s platform.

Plus, by electing him, we lowered the bar on acceptable standards. I'm not sure we can easily reset the bar.

Trump may be the only person ever, who after 4 years on the job will still remain uniquely unqualified for it, and this goes beyond his character flaws. Of course, what do you expect from a guy who refuses to read or listen to any of his experts and advisors.