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Thread: Brett Kavenaugh Supreme Court Nomination

  1. #151
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #152
    I listened to local talk radio yesterday afternoon, Rod Arquette's show.

    - Arquette was agreeing with his listeners that this was all made up BS, and predicted Ford wouldn't even show up today.

    - One caller, comfortable in the echo chamber, said this is all part of the FemiNazi agenda for women to take over and rule, but "that's not going to happen because God wants men to rule over women".

    The stuff people say... and think. (From all directions)

  3. #153
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This was a great podcast on the subject of the "flexibility" of our memory.

    http://revisionisthistory.com/episod...-memory-part-1

  4. #154
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    This is not going to be decided based on words alone. Most people react to body language and tone.


  5. #155
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    This is not going to be decided based on words alone. Most people react to body language and tone.

    That tweet is a great example of how different people can see the same thing and interpret it 100% differently. It's why eyewitness testimony alone is unreliable.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #156
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    She may be right.

    Now a Kavanaugh FBI investigation is obligatory

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...mpression=true

    A taste:

    If Republicans are giving any thought to pushing the nomination through without taking adequate time to investigate, they should first search their souls — and then get their heads examined. You do not risk putting a gang rapist on the Supreme Court to “own the libs” or even for the sake of overturning Roe v. Wade. If basic human decency and a respect for the probity of the courts don’t tell you that, then grubby electoral calculations should.

    But by the same token, Democrats should stop calling for Kavanaugh’s nomination to be withdrawn, as if that could possibly put this scandal to rest. Two days ago, yes, but now the nation cannot afford to punt. Regardless of what it might do to Republican chances of putting a conservative in the seat, or to Democratic chances of retaking the Senate, once Thursday’s hearing concludes, the president must reopen the FBI background checks to try to establish the truth of the allegations, from Swetnick and Ford and Ramirez. If the FBI substantiates them, any criminality should be referred to local prosecutors for possible prosecution. If the FBI is unable to substantiate any of them, then despite the lingering questions, Democrats should join Republicans and unanimously confirming Kavanaugh, to signal that some things — both #MeToo and the integrity of the nomination process — are above politics.

    Either grave crimes have passed undetected for decades and we must now do our utmost to see them punished, or a new crime is unfolding before our eyes: an attempt to manipulate the composition of the highest court of the land through the strategically timed release of unfalsifiable accusations of sexual assault. Either way, it’s too late for a political solution. This is now about preserving the integrity of the American justice system; it can’t be brushed away with “politics ain’t beanbag.” At this point, it’s more like Fiat justitia ruat cćlum: Let justice be done though the heavens fall.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-27-2018 at 02:21 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #157
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Twitter right now on the Kavenaugh hearing:


    R: LAUREL!

    D: YANNY!

  8. #158
    I felt Kavanaugh was quite attractive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    There is no history in the last 50 years of the Repubs (which is all I remember) engaging in character assassination of any SCOTUS nominee. That has been a part of the Democrats' playbook at least since Clarence Thomas. I don't think either side did it before then. Also, if the Repubs tried that tactic how well do you think it would play in the news/entertainment media?



    It's not really set until it works. That's the decision the Repubs have to make: Do we let this tactic work?
    Speaking of precedents, they set a modern one two years ago and are now running from it. Maybe they should have thought about the value of precedents two years ago. Maybe they wouldn't be in this situation now.

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    There is no history in the last 50 years of the Repubs (which is all I remember) engaging in character assassination of any SCOTUS nominee. That has been a part of the Democrats' playbook at least since Clarence Thomas. I don't think either side did it before then. Also, if the Repubs tried that tactic how well do you think it would play in the news/entertainment media?



    It's not really set until it works. That's the decision the Repubs have to make: Do we let this tactic work?
    A while back I mentioned the effect an aggressive, unbalanced Court can have on voting trends. The Warren Court is an example. It helped create the "tough on crime" mantle that the Republicans used for decades, as well as solidifying the Dixiecrats' move the the Repubs, as well as other things, like "liberal" becoming a negative term. What you're hoping for from a truly conservative block on the Court may already have a big impact on voter tendencies, and with a tainted justice making the fifth vote, the reaction may be even stronger.
    Be careful what you ask for.

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Sadly, this is probably true. I also suspect that incomplete, or wrong memories occur more frequently to someone who has suffered trauma, such as sexual assault or rape. Additional victimization.

    I wonder if the NR will now take on the charge of criminal justice reform related to issues of "planted" memories or incomplete, wrong memories of trauma victims, which would include most victims of crimes of violence. You know it won't, so why is it bringing it up here.

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I felt Kavanaugh was quite attractive.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Almost pleasing.

  13. #163
    So Kavanaugh says that Blasey Ford was wrong, but was just an innocent victim of despicable Democrats. Did he explain this, why he thought she wasn't also despicable?

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    So Kavanaugh says that Blasey Ford was wrong, but was just an innocent victim of despicable Democrats. Did he explain this, why he thought she wasn't also despicable?
    Two men say they, not Brett Kavanaugh, had alleged sexual encounter with Christine Ford

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rd/1439569002/

  15. #165
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    A while back I mentioned the effect an aggressive, unbalanced Court can have on voting trends. The Warren Court is an example. It helped create the "tough on crime" mantle that the Republicans used for decades, as well as solidifying the Dixiecrats' move the the Repubs, as well as other things, like "liberal" becoming a negative term. What you're hoping for from a truly conservative block on the Court may already have a big impact on voter tendencies, and with a tainted justice making the fifth vote, the reaction may be even stronger.
    Be careful what you ask for.
    I really hope that a Court with Kavanaugh (or whoever) on it will not change the law much. It should not be an activist court with the 5 guys who would be in the majority. I think liberals fear that it will be activist, because that's how they see the SCOTUS's role -- as an activist body.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-27-2018 at 07:44 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #166
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    So Kavanaugh says that Blasey Ford was wrong, but was just an innocent victim of despicable Democrats. Did he explain this, why he thought she wasn't also despicable?
    I watched most of his testimony, albeit with just one eye. He said several times that he thinks Dr. Ford may have been sexually assaulted but it wasn't by him. You might not like that (I get that) but that's how he avoided attacking her or suggesting that her behavior was despicable. He even said his young daughter prayed for Dr. Ford.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #167
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    And I thought this situation had reached the depths of rotten behavior:

    Someone on Capitol Hill just doxxed Republican Sens. Mike Lee, Orrin Hatch, and Lindsey Graham

    "Somebody working from a House of Representatives office is editing the Wikipedia pages of Republican senators to post what looks like their home addresses."

    Hey, if it's righteous to run them out of restaurants, why not do this too?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I watched most of his testimony, albeit with just one eye. He said several times that he thinks Dr. Ford may have been sexually assaulted but it wasn't by him. You might not like that (I get that) but that's how he avoided attacking her or suggesting that her behavior was despicable. He even said his young daughter prayed for Dr. Ford.
    So the conservative position is that Blasey Ford was probably sexually assaulted, but not by Kavanaugh, and liberals are despicably using her with no concern about whether the sexual assault was perpetrated by Kavanaugh. So the Democrats have victimized and used Blasey Ford. Did they manipulate her into coming forward? Poor little Dr. Ford.

  19. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I really hope that a Court with Kavanaugh (or whoever) on it will not change the law much. It should not be an activist court with the 5 guys who would be in the majority. I think liberals fear that it will be activist, because that's how they see the SCOTUS's role -- as an activist body.
    You think the conservatives on the Court haven't already been activists? Just in the small area I have practiced in, they have substantially changed the law on sovereign immunity, the enforceability of federal statutes under section 1983, rewrote the ADA, among other things.

  20. #170
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    You think the conservatives on the Court haven't already been activists? Just in the small area I have practiced in, they have substantially changed the law on sovereign immunity, the enforceability of federal statutes under section 1983, rewrote the ADA, among other things.
    I only care about the Court being activist on matters I don't want them to be activist about.

    Seriously, I am talking about really big changes that affect everyone. Roberts believes in what he calls "judicial modesty." That's why he stretched to avoid overturning the ACA (Obamacare). He didn't want to strike down a law that had passed with a huge majority in Congress.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Almost pleasing.
    Seriously at this point I worry about Orin Hatch's faculties. Nobody could be that tone deaf, even when you are a million years old like he is.


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  22. #172
    Mike Lee's statement is a fairly generic GOP talking point:

    "I believe Dr. Ford was assaulted - but it wasn't Kavanaugh. (Even though she said it was 100% him. And now we must stonewall any other claims or evidence or considerations and seat him ASAP)"

    Reactions to Kavanaugh's performance reflect our sharply divided tribalism:

    Facebook friend: "I greatly admire Judge Kavanaugh and I wish I could be more like him".

    Rep Ted Lieu: "If Kavanaugh gets that angry on national TV, imagine how he is when he gets inebriated"

  23. #173
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Mike Lee's statement is a fairly generic GOP talking point:

    "I believe Dr. Ford was assaulted - but it wasn't Kavanaugh. (Even though she said it was 100% him. And now we must stonewall any other claims or evidence or considerations and seat him ASAP)"

    Reactions to Kavanaugh's performance reflect our sharply divided tribalism:

    Facebook friend: "I greatly admire Judge Kavanaugh and I wish I could be more like him".

    Rep Ted Lieu: "If Kavanaugh gets that angry on national TV, imagine how he is when he gets inebriated"
    She seemed very sincere and I think she believes her story. People of sincere good will wonder, however, look at the lack of cooperation and witnesses, the passage of time, and so forth, and can’t be sure her memory of her story is accurate. Only she and Brett Kavanaugh are in a position to know, assuming their memories actually are accurate. Juries have to figure these things out all the time. Right now the American public is the jury. Anyone who says the answer is clear or obvious simply isn’t paying close attention.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    She seemed very sincere and I think she believes her story. People of sincere good will wonder, however, look at the lack of cooperation and witnesses, the passage of time, and so forth, and can’t be sure her memory of her story is accurate. Only she and Brett Kavanaugh are in a position to know, assuming their memories actually are accurate. Juries have to figure these things out all the time. Right now the American public is the jury. Anyone who says the answer is clear or obvious simply isn’t paying close attention.
    And as you know, juries are often very wrong in their findings.

    Anyone who is innocent and knows the justice system would ask for a bench trial.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  25. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I only care about the Court being activist on matters I don't want them to be activist about.

    Seriously, I am talking about really big changes that affect everyone. Roberts believes in what he calls "judicial modesty." That's why he stretched to avoid overturning the ACA (Obamacare). He didn't want to strike down a law that had passed with a huge majority in Congress.
    Those things affect quite a few people, mostly those with little money or power.

  26. #176
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    And as you know, juries are often very wrong in their findings.

    Anyone who is innocent and knows the justice system would ask for a bench trial.
    You’re right about juries. I absolutely would ask for a bench trial. I think that you once again misread my intent. I was saying that the truth is unknowable here, that the American public is the jury, and there’s no telling whether this jury is going to get this one right. In my opinion, our system is not perfect, but it’s the only one we have and we have to live with it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    She seemed very sincere and I think she believes her story.
    I didn't see it, but most people agree with this. Simplifying a bit, let's say there were three possibilities before:

    1) She made it up
    2) It happened, but not like she remembers
    3) It happened, and he's lying

    I think her testimony yesterday means there are really just two possibilities now:

    1) It happened, but not like she remembers
    2) It happened, and he's lying

    The best possible outcome for Kavanaugh is now off the table, and the worst just became much more likely. I just don't think he's worth it to the GOP. Not when there are other conservative options. If Roe vs Wade is the only thing that matters, I'm sure they can find someone else who will overturn it.

    I think Kavanaugh had the option of honorably withdrawing as recently as two days ago. I don't think that's really an option for him anymore. Now, I think the GOP's best play is to call for a vote immediately and to vote him down convincingly. Do this, and say something about believing both of them (and in particular say something about the importance of believing women) and not wanting to take any chances with something as important as a supreme court justice opening. Then start on the next nominee immediately.

    Unrelated thought: my whole life, liberals have been erroneously touting the virtue of outrage. Now, when Kavanaugh is outraged, they say his outrage disqualifies him. Just another drop in the sea of political hypocrisy.
    Last edited by sancho; 09-28-2018 at 12:05 PM.

  28. #178
    I am disgusted by the conduct of the Senators. I have 0 respect for all of them. They are doing a tremendous disservice to the Country.

  29. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    You’re right about juries. I absolutely would ask for a bench trial. I think that you once again misread my intent. I was saying that the truth is unknowable here, that the American public is the jury, and there’s no telling whether this jury is going to get this one right. In my opinion, our system is not perfect, but it’s the only one we have and we have to live with it.
    The truth is unknowable in this case.

    It's like asserting someone is a bad driver, based on an alleged accident that wasn't documented, 35 years ago. Yet while we're left to judge on a single incident, others might be able to add to the mosaic.

    "I remember he was driving too fast and took out the neighbor's fence because I had to fix it", or "Didn't he back over your brother's bike, too? A few of us remember that one".

    Nothing else is allowed, at this point. Did the incident occur, or is it unknowable? He gets the benefit of the doubt, where Ford gets a pat on the head, and the others get the Stonewall McConnell treatment. Republicans bellow that it's not a trial... and then use the tightest political filter to exclude relevant information, on a lifetime appointment.

  30. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    The truth is unknowable in this case.

    It's like asserting someone is a bad driver, based on an alleged accident that wasn't documented, 35 years ago. Yet while we're left to judge on a single incident, others might be able to add to the mosaic.

    "I remember he was driving too fast and took out the neighbor's fence because I had to fix it", or "Didn't he back over your brother's bike, too? A few of us remember that one".

    Nothing else is allowed, at this point. Did the incident occur, or is it unknowable? He gets the benefit of the doubt, where Ford gets a pat on the head, and the others get the Stonewall McConnell treatment. Republicans bellow that it's not a trial... and then use the tightest political filter to exclude relevant information, on a lifetime appointment.
    That's fine to collect that information, but we are already ignoring the information like that which has been gathered and submitted, including the two of the others present who deny it happened, the many people who have vouched for his character in HS and college, and apparently two men who have purportedly confessed to doing it. Conversely we've also ignored the other character witnesses for Ford, and even timelines of when she started talking about this before K's nomination.

    I honestly don't think that it will uncover anything new or even as substantial as what we have now. Plus an important factor in all of this is being drunk at a party, and even blackout drunk doesn't make him a sexual predator either, and that seems to be the very best we can come up with. Plenty of people out there getting blackout drunk that aren't committing any crimes beyond soiling their own pants.

    It also seems pretty disingenuous to be critical of Republicans using a tight filter when Feinstein deplorably sat on this information throughout the entire vetting process. It seems she has escaped this whole thing unscathed when her actions have done harm to Ford second only to what Kavanaugh is accused of doing.

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