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Thread: Brett Kavenaugh Supreme Court Nomination

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    lol.

    What I'm hearing now are complaints that some accusers aren't being interviewed by the FBI, at all. (Maybe those accusers are somehow be related to Trump family finances, which are past the red line?)

    Assuming these reports are accurate... what would be the rationale for not talking to them?

    Here's an interesting angle - even though it's well past any statue of limitation time limit, supposedly the State of Maryland will investigate complaints. There wouldn't be any charges filed, but what if Maryland finds and investigates which characters were at "alleged" parties where industrial strength, Bill Cosby-level of debaucheries (allegedly) took place?

    Wouldn't the US Senate be interested in information that goes to the heart of the principal complaints? It's not a trial. Hold a closed section to spare further damage to Kavanaugh, Ford, Ramirez, etc.
    Apparently there has been no limitation on who the FBI can investigate, just Avenatti concocting news in this case (hey, he would be a worthy opponent to Trump in 2020!)


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  2. #212
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    A down the middle analysis by Andrew Sullivan. There’s stuff in here that everyone will agree and disagree with.

    Everyone Lost at the Ford-Kavanaugh Hearings

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-sullivan.html

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Apparently there has been no limitation on who the FBI can investigate, just Avenatti concocting news in this case (hey, he would be a worthy opponent to Trump in 2020!)
    I didn't say he would be a desirable candidate, only that in the circus we live in, he would be in the same mold as Trump, just from the left...or wherever it is he comes from (kind of like Trump).

    The anti-circus candidate I would prefer seems to be picking up momentum, even drew an apology from Kavanaugh. It would be nice to migrate back toward being a civil society: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartanntp

    Hearkening back to an earlier discussion about females as leaders, maybe the nation is ready for somebody like Klobuchar, letting the fossils who led us into this ongoing low intensity civil war fade into the history books. Detoxify the environment a bit, coax people to work together. Sounds intriguing, right?

    DC is setup for confrontational zero-sum battles, but there was a time when a "growing pie" compromise mindset was more prevalent, even with all the political drama. My co-worker's father was the GOP counsel for the Commerce Committee, said there's no way he could do his job in the environment that has predominated the past 20 years.
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 09-30-2018 at 02:11 PM.

  4. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    The reporter whom the letter was leaked to states it was not Feinstein or anyone on her staff. They also stated the letter itself wasn’t leaked. Merely its existence and basic cintends

    It’s quite plausible it was someone outside of politics.



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    diehard--you have a private message that is time sensitive

  5. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    I might have missed something, but how has his family been damaged? He told Feinstein his family "had been destroyed".

    Maybe this is part of a paternalistic mindset I'm ignorant of, or maybe the "sins of the father" thing persists beyond the attempts to de-emphasize it. (I could have a blind spot on this perspective, as my family growing up was marginalized, second class citizens because my dad was a jack Mormon who smoked, and we were Ute fans in a sea of BYU, LDS orthodoxy, etc. In hindsight, I don't think anything my dad did made any difference on my trajectory, for the worse. It helped me develop thick skin.)
    I don't think his family has been destroyed, but like Dr. Ford, his family has been subject to threats of violence.

  6. #216
    Ok, I know this will set off a lot of people here, but earlier this week my daughter wrote about this stuff for Vox, and yesterday Kamala Harris retweeted it.

    Kamala HarrisVerified account @KamalaHarrisFollowFollow
    @KamalaHarris

    Kamala Harris Retweeted Vox
    “Our country is telling [boys] not only that sexual assault as a teenager is forgivable, but that if the allegations are true, it would not even disqualify a person from the highest court in America. As a teenage girl, it terrifies me.”

    Kamala Harris added,
    VoxVerified account @voxdotcom
    To those dismissing the Kavanaugh allegations: Teen girls like me are listening https://www.vox.com/first-person/201...source=twitter

    7:26 PM - 29 Sep 2018
    Last edited by concerned; 09-30-2018 at 03:29 PM.

  7. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Ok, I know this will set off a lot of people here,
    Far from it - I'll speak for everyone and say, Good for your daughter! Being retweeted by a senator probably feels good to someone who tweets.

  8. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Hearkening back to an earlier discussion about females as leaders, maybe the nation is ready for somebody like Klobuchar, letting the fossils who led us into this ongoing low intensity civil war fade into the history books. Detoxify the environment a bit, coax people to work together. Sounds intriguing, right?
    What makes you think that she, or any current senator, is likely to detoxify the environment?

    Someone at church today was telling me how qualified Kavanaugh is while we were setting up chairs, and it occurred to me just how unqualified most of our congress representatives are. I mean, we've done it to ourselves by voting these people in, but there aren't a lot of amazing resumes out there.

  9. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Far from it - I'll speak for everyone and say, Good for your daughter! Being retweeted by a senator probably feels good to someone who tweets.
    It feels good to an 18 year old, that is for sure. It wasn't just a tweet; Harris retweeted her article.

  10. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    It feels good to an 18 year old, that is for sure. It wasn't just a tweet; Harris retweeted her article.
    It's a big deal. Good for her. I could focus the rest of my life on nothing more than writing an article worthy of a senator retweet, and I would never make it.

  11. #221
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    It feels good to an 18 year old, that is for sure. It wasn't just a tweet; Harris retweeted her article.
    Very cool, concerned. You are justly proud of her.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Very cool, concerned. You are justly proud of her.

    Yes, I confess.

  13. #223
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Brett Kavenaugh Supreme Court Nomination

    This appeared in the Illinois Times:



    The lack of decency should appall everyone here.

    https://www.theamericanconservative....d-chris-britt/
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-30-2018 at 10:51 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Ok, I know this will set off a lot of people here, but earlier this week my daughter wrote about this stuff for Vox, and yesterday Kamala Harris retweeted it.

    Kamala HarrisVerified account @KamalaHarrisFollowFollow
    @KamalaHarris

    Kamala Harris Retweeted Vox
    “Our country is telling [boys] not only that sexual assault as a teenager is forgivable, but that if the allegations are true, it would not even disqualify a person from the highest court in America. As a teenage girl, it terrifies me.”

    Kamala Harris added,
    VoxVerified account @voxdotcom
    To those dismissing the Kavanaugh allegations: Teen girls like me are listening https://www.vox.com/first-person/201...source=twitter

    7:26 PM - 29 Sep 2018

    This is not necessarily a knock on your daughter. My high school son has virtually no interest in politics. Doesn’t bother me at all. I like that he’s into sports at this point in his life and not politics. But good for your civically minded daughter.

    45 million Americans voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 when rumors of sexual misconduct swirled about, but I don’t hunk any allegations had emerged at that point. He received 47 million votes in 1996 after credible allegations of groping by Paula Jones. 63 million voted for Donald Trump despite plenty of allegations and evidence that he’s groped/assaulted women all his adult life. Another 66 million voted for Hillary Clinton despite the fact she’s enabled her husband, who turned out to be another prolific predator, as well as attacking the women who came forward with credible allegations. Cory Booker, wrote an article as a student at Stanford about how he groped a drunk girl just a few years earlier. Yet he was elected to local and national positions by his constituents who don’t seem too concerned with his actions as a 17 year old high school student.

    My point is that the dye was cast long before Kavanaugh entered the scene. For many decades Democrats and Republicans alike are guilty of accepting this behavior from its government officials.

    The difference between those I’ve mentioned and Kavanaugh is there is ample evidence they were sexual predators. To date, there’s one credible allegation and zero credible evidence that he actually did what he is accused. Let’s see if the FBI comes up with something before labeling him a sexual predator. That’s my opinion anyway.

  15. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    This is not necessarily a knock on your daughter. My high school son has virtually no interest in politics. Doesn’t bother me at all. I like that he’s into sports at this point in his life and not politics. But good for your civically minded daughter.

    45 million Americans voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 when rumors of sexual misconduct swirled about, but I don’t hunk any allegations had emerged at that point. He received 47 million votes in 1996 after credible allegations of groping by Paula Jones. 63 million voted for Donald Trump despite plenty of allegations and evidence that he’s groped/assaulted women all his adult life. Another 66 million voted for Hillary Clinton despite the fact she’s enabled her husband, who turned out to be another prolific predator, as well as attacking the women who came forward with credible allegations. Cory Booker, wrote an article as a student at Stanford about how he groped a drunk girl just a few years earlier. Yet he was elected to local and national positions by his constituents who don’t seem too concerned with his actions as a 17 year old high school student.

    My point is that the dye was cast long before Kavanaugh entered the scene. For many decades Democrats and Republicans alike are guilty of accepting this behavior from its government officials.

    The difference between those I’ve mentioned and Kavanaugh is there is ample evidence they were sexual predators. To date, there’s one credible allegation and zero credible evidence that he actually did what he is accused. Let’s see if the FBI comes up with something before labeling him a sexual predator. That’s my opinion anyway.
    I dont disagree with anything you said. Neither would my daughter. She is appalled by trump and Clinton too. One quibble: Fords testimony is evidence. Lots of criminal defendants are convicted on similar first person testimony. It's just not corroborated by an eyewitness, and may be contradicted by one.it may be indirectly corroborated by circumstantial evidence.

  16. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I dont disagree with anything you said. Neither would my daughter. She is appalled by trump and Clinton too. One quibble: Fords testimony is evidence. Lots of criminal defendants are convicted on similar first person testimony. It's just not corroborated by an eyewitness, and may be contradicted by one.it may be indirectly corroborated by circumstantial evidence.
    That’s what makes many sexual assault cases so difficult to try. There is little physical evidence, or that physical evidence can be “explained away”




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  17. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    And I thought this situation had reached the depths of rotten behavior:

    Someone on Capitol Hill just doxxed Republican Sens. Mike Lee, Orrin Hatch, and Lindsey Graham

    "Somebody working from a House of Representatives office is editing the Wikipedia pages of Republican senators to post what looks like their home addresses."

    Hey, if it's righteous to run them out of restaurants, why not do this too?
    They were just following the example of our own POTUS who publicly outed Lindsay Graham's cell phone number.

  18. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    In the probable event that the FBI comes back and says that they can find no credible evidence to support Ford's claims (which don't get upset, it had been 30 years and finding any evidence will be near impossible - I'm surprised we have the evidence we do - they also won't be able to prove his innocence), will the Left join the Trumpistas in hating and being skeptical of the ethics and credibility of the FBI too?

    I'll get a kick out of that unholy union.


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    Sorry, but it won't happen.

    The rumors on Twitter is that Trump is using his powers over the Executive to control who the FBI talks to and who they don't.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/30/polit...ion/index.html

    So the left can continue to direct their ire at Trump.

  19. #229
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    Sorry, but it won't happen.

    The rumors on Twitter is that Trump is using his powers over the Executive to control who the FBI talks to and who they don't.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/30/polit...ion/index.html

    So the left can continue to direct their ire at Trump.
    Well, if that’s what the Twitter rumors say.... 😉

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #230
    There was an interesting conversation on Facebook started by a friend of mine who investigates sex crimes that started out with him saying, "Unless you are a victim of sexual assault or work in sex crimes shut the f*** up."

    He went on to explain that silence on sexual assault and even people around them not knowing it happened is very common and victims often don't come forward for years. He also noted the very low rate of false accusations of sexual assault and that people's memory tends to be fuzzy around details even immediately around the trauma. He also noted that almost all assault accusations are unsubstantiated when first reported and it require an investigation to corroborate facts. Finally, a lot of seeming great upstanding guys are guilty of sexual assault.

    I think most of us knew that already. But then he was pretty emphatic about how politicians on both sides have behaved poorly and interfered with a fair investigation and the last people on earth who should be asking these two people questions are politicians. He said at this point it will be very hard to do a proper investigation.

    And I think that is what has been troubling to me about this. Nothing about this is fair to either individual involved and the public spectacle of it all is unfair and further victimizes people. It is particularly troubling that all of this could have been investigated in a more fair way in private where the real facts could hopefully come out.

    Now I'm reading a report, "Kavanaugh threw ice at someone in a bar in college..." which of course means that he is guilty of sexual assault. Or photos of Ford being circulated when she was young, "Look she was homely, no way he'd assault her." That's about as low humanity can get on this subject.


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  21. #231
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    I don't know whether Kavenaugh is guilty of sexual assault or not. Frankly, without any evidence, I don't think he would ever be convicted or should be.

    What he is guilty of, however, is a pattern of bad behavior that brings into question as to whether or not he should serve on the Supreme Court.

  22. #232
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    TAnd I think that is what has been troubling to me about this. Nothing about this is fair to either individual involved and the public spectacle of it all is unfair and further victimizes people. It is particularly troubling that all of this could have been investigated in a more fair way in private where the real facts could hopefully come out.

    Now I'm reading a report, "Kavanaugh threw ice at someone in a bar in college..." which of course means that he is guilty of sexual assault. Or photos of Ford being circulated when she was young, "Look she was homely, no way he'd assault her." That's about as low humanity can get on this subject.
    I've never thought that her not telling anyone was significant from a proof standpoint. What troubles me about this is the lack of evidence and the many inconsistencies and missing pieces in her story. I'm sympathetic to the "believe women" idea but we need more than an allegation.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I've never thought that her not telling anyone was significant from a proof standpoint. What troubles me about this is the lack of evidence and the many inconsistencies and missing pieces in her story. I'm sympathetic to the "believe women" idea but we need more than an allegation.
    Agreed, but the conduct of the senate committee didn't afford either person that option.


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  24. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I've never thought that her not telling anyone was significant from a proof standpoint. What troubles me about this is the lack of evidence and the many inconsistencies and missing pieces in her story. I'm sympathetic to the "believe women" idea but we need more than an allegation.
    There’s often a lack of evidence.

    Sadly Hollywood has conditioned people to think there is hard physical evidence most of the time. Reality is in most crimes physical evidence is hard to come by.


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  25. #235
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Agreed, but the conduct of the senate committee didn't afford either person that option.


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    What? You don't think a group of preening politicians seeking to maintain or obtain power is likely to get at the facts of a politically-charged controversy?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #236
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    There’s often a lack of evidence.

    Sadly Hollywood has conditioned people to think there is hard physical evidence most of the time. Reality is in most crimes physical evidence is hard to come by.
    No doubt. I'm not talking about the DNA evidence that always solves the case on TV or in movies, just good old-fashioned corroboration and a version of events that makes sense. Both are missing here.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I've never thought that her not telling anyone was significant from a proof standpoint. What troubles me about this is the lack of evidence and the many inconsistencies and missing pieces in her story. I'm sympathetic to the "believe women" idea but we need more than an allegation.
    The appropriate step would have been to pull the nomination back and do a thorough investigation, but we all know that wouldn't happen.
    The real problem is that the nomination couldn't be considered in an appropriate fashion. The Republicans wanted to quickly push through a very conservative candidate before the elections or the end of the year, when the Democrats may take control the Senate. The Democrats tried to manipulate the process to slow it down.
    We now have a serious issue that demands thorough investigation. The Republicans are still trying to push it through and the serious issue will not be adequately considered. Isn't that the bottom line?
    Would you feel good about how this is playing out if it was May 1, 2017 and there was a decision to investigate for one week?

  28. #238
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    The appropriate step would have been to pull the nomination back and do a thorough investigation, but we all know that wouldn't happen.
    The real problem is that the nomination couldn't be considered in an appropriate fashion. The Republicans wanted to quickly push through a very conservative candidate before the elections or the end of the year, when the Democrats may take control the Senate. The Democrats tried to manipulate the process to slow it down.
    We now have a serious issue that demands thorough investigation. The Republicans are still trying to push it through and the serious issue will not be adequately considered. Isn't that the bottom line?
    Would you feel good about how this is playing out if it was May 1, 2017 and there was a decision to investigate for one week?
    You're just as incorrigible as you were in high school.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #239
    What complicates Kavanaugh's nomination in this existential political war for both sides, is his past in an era when behavior which was perhaps "borderline" is today absolutely disqualifyingly toxic, now.

    The standards of interaction between men & women have changed. Ask Al Franken.

    We all remember some of the "locker room talk" some engaged in. I turned away, disgusted. This was part of what drove me out of the church of my upbringing, listening to little old ladies in church praising our neighborhood's new generation of young priesthood leaders by name who would lead us as a people to the Millennium... after I'd heard the same guys talking about girls in truly disgusting ways just the night before.

    (It wasn't all of them, but the mismatch in deeds and perceived righteousness was too much for me to take. It was nauseating, it was wrong, but the adults lavished praise on young men I knew were minor league immoral monsters, bragging about getting to different "bases" with different girls, and how certain "smells" differed between them. "Tuna!" was some slang I remember being bantered around in the hallways in HS, referring to specific girls.)

    Ahh... but that was just "boys being boys", right?

    Kavanaugh as the rowdy, beer drinking Yale frat boy "man's man" leader doesn't square with the wholesome image he portrays today as the righteous anti-abortion evangelical.

    I've seen this movie before. When Kavanaugh was first nominated, my wife immediately reacted - "there's something about him that's just not right." A woman's intuition? Or just another hysterical anti-Trump liberal?

    Trump could sidestep all this with a different candidate, but it's turned into a duel of honor.

    As GOP Senators are being harassed in airports and other public places, “This is really not even about the Senate,” Bob Corker said. “It’s about where the country right now and we as a nation have to figure out a way to unite. Right now there are just so many issues that separate us.”

  30. #240
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is pretty depressing, but it does give us a snapshot of what we have sunk to as a nation. And I’m not excusing those on the other side who do similar things.

    Georgetown University responds amid backlash to prof's 'white men' tweet, Twitter suspends account

    https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11374

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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