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Thread: Pitching it on the Palouse - Utah @ WSU

  1. #61
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    clearly Whitt hasn't figured this conference out (and maybe Utah at .500 in the PAC-12 is our ceiling), but here's a subtle reminder: with Whitt Utah is 23-1 non-conference including bowl games. That includes wins over BYU (7), Michigan (2), Indiana, WVU

  2. #62
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Are you developing a persecution complex on this?

    There's nothing heretical about wanting a new coach. It's a classic, orthodox football fan way to think.
    SoCalPat was not calling for Kyle to be fired, as I read his post. Just saying the program needs a reset, which can be accomplished in several ways (like starting to play much better, right now). The heresy against the established orthodoxy here is SCP's suggesting that we can do better than Kyle and his 28-37 PAC-12 record. I don't feel persecuted, just calling it the way I see it. I still hope KW stays at Utah until he retires. If he retires at the end of his current contract that would be fine with me. In that case he would also be just fine:

    ...the deal provides a means for up to a decade of additional compensation — at least $3.4 million in all — for Whittingham should the 57-year-old decide to retire at Utah.

    If Whittingham decides to retire while under contract at the U., he would become a "special assistant to the Athletics Director" for 10 years, according to the agreement obtained by The Tribune through the state's open records laws.
    http://archive.sltrib.com/article.ph...09&itype=CMSID

    A happy ending for everyone. We'll then find out if the Utah job is really so unattractive that no one decent will want it.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 10-01-2018 at 01:38 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    A happy ending for everyone.
    Maybe. It's not a happy ending for us if we are hiring again in 3 years. It's not happy if, 10 years from now, we are still paying two former coaches because we fired them early. In other words, if this goes like it normally goes for mid-level P5 programs, it's not a happy ending. But it definitely can work out. There are precedents.

    We'll then find out if the Utah job is so unattractive that no one decent will want it.
    Has anyone ever said that no one decent will want the position? People will be lining up for it, just like they did two years ago at Minnesota/Cal and last year at Oregon State/Arizona/Mississippi State. A shot at P5 success is what coaches dream about, and Utah is as reasonable a shot as most.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    Crazy talk right there. More compelling by being horrible? Being a Bills fan has messed you up

    If you are going to blow up a coaching staff that has consistently achieved winning seasons, you better do so with a plan. At the very least, you better have 2 or 3 candidates in mind that will be better or at least as good.

    Remember when Nebraska fired Frank Solich after a 9-4 season? And what has Nebraska done since? They hired a big name coach in Callahan, who failed miserably. They brought in a legacy coach in Riley, and he failed. Now they brought in a legacy name who is an up-and-comer, and they are having an historically bad start to their season.
    It's tough to compare my feelings toward the Bills and Utes -- the former will always rate higher in my heart than the latter, it's really not even close -- but I was more jazzed about this week's game against Green Bay than I had any Utes game since 2015 Cal/ASU/USC. Why? Because both teams were coming off stretches in which the bar had been cleared by a mile. But let me make one thing clear about "compelling." I'm largely speaking in one-season snapshots. We wouldn't be compelling if we missed a bowl game for 8 straight seasons.

    You almost had me cornered with the Nebraska comparison. You forgot Bo Pelini, who had decent success at Nebraska (similar to Solich), but was such a joyless, Grade-A asshole to everyone around him, any success felt bittersweet, because you really wouldn't mind watching him flail, struggle and fail. If it means a coach like Pelini, or keeping Kyle, I'll give Kyle a lifetime contract (I've never once, and never will, criticize Kyle for his personal stamp he's put on the program, which is commendable, classy and rewarding for all who are part of the program). Fortunately, college sports don't work in such absolutes.

  5. #65
    This conversation is because we lost to the #8ish team in the nation and a good, not great Washington State team on the road? I get the frustration with our offense; I feel it too. But what I don't get is this idea that (a) there is a magical coach avaialble who will dramatically alter our progress AND (b) we would have a reasonable chance of identifying said coach. I think as Sancho has ably pointed out (and history has backed up repeatedly) hiring a new coach is generally a losing proposition. Ucla, Arizona, Nebraska, and Florida State all hired coaches last year that likely were out of our league. But they all suck! And that was last year alone! Odds are pretty slim of landing that second Urban Meyer (who also got incredibly lucky; first overall NFL draft pick is your backup? At Utah?).

    Just remember, we don't get to keep the defense when we trade up for a shiny new offensive coach. That's not how this works.

  6. #66
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    Another thing to consider: Fans are afraid of losing, want to avoid it at any cost, and put way too much stock into empty accomplishments. Ask yourself this: Do you really think anyone connected with the West Virginia fanbase gives a rip that they lost their bowl game to Utah?

    The easiest losing season I can remember swallowing as a Ute fan? 2013, easy. We beat Stanford, took Oregon State, ASU and UCLA to the wire and our young QB missed significant time late because of injury. It was also Erickson's first year, and you could see that even though the records were the same in 2012 and 2013, the 2013 team was miles better than the previous edition.

    There's still time to make this season better, but a two-year-long step back from what was done in 2014-16 means 2019 is a no-excuses year for the entire program.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Another thing to consider: Fans are afraid of losing, want to avoid it at any cost, and put way too much stock into empty accomplishments. Ask yourself this: Do you really think anyone connected with the West Virginia fanbase gives a rip that they lost their bowl game to Utah?

    The easiest losing season I can remember swallowing as a Ute fan? 2013, easy. We beat Stanford, took Oregon State, ASU and UCLA to the wire and our young QB missed significant time late because of injury. It was also Erickson's first year, and you could see that even though the records were the same in 2012 and 2013, the 2013 team was miles better than the previous edition.

    There's still time to make this season better, but a two-year-long step back from what was done in 2014-16 means 2019 is a no-excuses year for the entire program.
    Very true, and all the offensive woes have overshadowed what is shaping up to be a special defense.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    This conversation is because we lost to the #8ish team in the nation and a good, not great Washington State team on the road? I get the frustration with our offense; I feel it too. But what I don't get is this idea that (a) there is a magical coach avaialble who will dramatically alter our progress AND (b) we would have a reasonable chance of identifying said coach. I think as Sancho has ably pointed out (and history has backed up repeatedly) hiring a new coach is generally a losing proposition. Ucla, Arizona, Nebraska, and Florida State all hired coaches last year that likely were out of our league. But they all suck! And that was last year alone! Odds are pretty slim of landing that second Urban Meyer (who also got incredibly lucky; first overall NFL draft pick is your backup? At Utah?).

    Just remember, we don't get to keep the defense when we trade up for a shiny new offensive coach. That's not how this works.
    Leach was to a small degree damaged goods when hired by Wazzu. He's 3-1 against Kyle and has won three straight with obviously lesser talent.

    Harlan hired Charlie Strong off the scrap heap at USF, freshly fired from Texas. He's done pretty well there. Too early to say about Brian Gregory (ex-Georgia Tech HC) for basketball. I think it's way too early to discount what Harlan can do in terms of hiring new coaches at Utah. He's going to have to do it eventually.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Leach was to a small degree damaged goods when hired by Wazzu. He's 3-1 against Kyle and has won three straight with obviously lesser talent.
    I just don't see the obviously lesser talent. While Utah's defensive personnel is better than Wazzu, I would submit that every offensive personnel group at Wazzu, excluding RB, is better than Utah, and RB really doesn't matter because of their scheme.

  10. #70
    Speaking of talent, the most important job of a coaching staff is recruiting. Utah's recruiting has improved slowly and steadily since joining the Pac-12.

  11. #71
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Speaking of talent, the most important job of a coaching staff is recruiting. Utah's recruiting has improved slowly and steadily since joining the Pac-12.
    True. That has been quite evident to those who’ve been paying attention.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I just don't see the obviously lesser talent. While Utah's defensive personnel is better than Wazzu, I would submit that every offensive personnel group at Wazzu, excluding RB, is better than Utah, and RB really doesn't matter because of their scheme.
    We had more NFL draft picks in 2016 than Leach has had his entire 6-year tenure in Pullman. Add our massive edge in STs, and we never should lose three straight to Wazzu.

    Wazzu entered Saturday’s game 7th in total defense. Wake me up when Kyle has a team that’s 7th in total offense.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    We had more NFL draft picks in 2016 than Leach has had his entire 6-year tenure in Pullman. Add our massive edge in STs, and we never should lose three straight to Wazzu.

    Wazzu entered Saturday’s game 7th in total defense. Wake me up when Kyle has a team that’s 7th in total offense.
    Sorry. for not knowing, but what is an ST?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Sorry. for not knowing, but what is an ST?
    I’m guessing Special Teams.
    I saw a door that said exit only. So I entered through it and went up to the guy working there and said "I have good news. You have severely underestimated that door over there. By like a hundred percent." Demetri Marti

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    I’m guessing Special Teams.
    Correct.

  16. #76
    How can Kyle ever compete with the Pirate? This is unbelievable.

    http://www.espn.com/college-football...ke-play-script

  17. #77
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is pretty interesting.

    One Play: Breaking down Washington State’s 89-yard, game-winning touchdown pass

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/...ouchdown-pass/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This is pretty interesting.

    One Play: Breaking down Washington State’s 89-yard, game-winning touchdown pass

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/...ouchdown-pass/

    There is so much involved in every play that we do not see or understand. I guess that is why it is so easy for us to Monday morning QB everything. We don't need to account for the intricacies.

  19. #79
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    There is so much involved in every play that we do not see or understand. I guess that is why it is so easy for us to Monday morning QB everything. We don't need to account for the intricacies.

    Agreed. I thought it was interesting how well the WSU OC understood exactly what we were doing defensively. No doubt Scalley also knew what to expect from WSU offensively. After all the scheming, players make plays. The chess game aspect of it all is fascinating.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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