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Thread: The 2018 Utah Classic Thread

  1. #61
    Sancho,
    I don't agree with this neither does Kuzma. He liked playing here but he felt under-developed. I know this second hand from an insider who spoke with Kyle. I didn't believe Kyle would be second-round draft choice let alone a first rounder who looks like he'll be in the NBA a long time. Kyle's development came immediately following the U preparing for the draft. I'm not saying player development is easy given all of the aspects of coaching. I am saying Utah needs to be better at it.

  2. #62
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Right, and I am pointing out that only one of those two approaches actually exists.
    That hasn’t been my experience, so you and I see this differently. This is what makes America great country.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    That hasn’t been my experience, so you and I see this differently. This is what makes America great country.
    Wow. You really are tone deaf to your astounding sanctimony. Anyone who disagrees with you must be more of a coach groupie than care about the school. Well, have you ever thought about the fact that Spence Eccles and pretty much every sports writer, coach and other football expert in the nation agreed with those who have defended Whit and disagreed with you and Chris Hill? No. That probably hasn’t occurred to you, though now you admit you were wrong.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

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    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

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    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    You and Kyle can believe what you like, but you can't change history. Kuz was completely lost as a freshman, and he left as an all Pac-12 player. I guess you can argue that his progress came in spite of our coaches instead of because of our coaches, but you can't really argue that there was no development.
    Hold it. Dozens of kids every year culminate a collegiate career with a path very similar to what Kuzma experienced. Virtually none of them skyrocket into the first round and make the all-NBA rookie team.

    I was initially inclined to believe Kyle was a lottery ticket and there was really no fault on Larry for this type of jet-fueled development, but seeing this year’s team — where there’s very little not to like amongst our guards and forwards individually, yet we cannot gel and play together as a unit — well, that’s gotta lie on someone. So yeah, I’m leaning toward giving little credit to Larry for developing Kuzma into the player he is today.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by snafu View Post
    Laughing at the folks who want LK out. They seem to forget how awful we were before LK. This team needs a Bibbins. Gach needs to take over.
    Bobbins was a grad transfer, and Gach is a true. But yeah, that’ll get us into the NCAAs.

    As for wanting Larry out, you’re trying to set the bar in relation to Ray and Jimmy. That’s not the bar that’s been set at Utah. The bar was set by Gardner, Foster, Pimm and Majerus, and Larry has fallen well short of that standard. In that regard, he’s better than our previous two coaches, but what he’s done isn’t exactly meeting a standard for previous excellence.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Wow. You really are tone deaf to your astounding sanctimony. Anyone who disagrees with you must be more of a coach groupie than care about the school. Well, have you ever thought about the fact that Spence Eccles and pretty much every sports writer, coach and other football expert in the nation agreed with those who have defended Whit and disagreed with you and Chris Hill? No. That probably hasn’t occurred to you, though now you admit you were wrong.
    I think you need to remove that last quote from your footer.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Hold it. Dozens of kids every year culminate a collegiate career with a path very similar to what Kuzma experienced. Virtually none of them skyrocket into the first round and make the all-NBA rookie team.

    I was initially inclined to believe Kyle was a lottery ticket and there was really no fault on Larry for this type of jet-fueled development, but seeing this year’s team — where there’s very little not to like amongst our guards and forwards individually, yet we cannot gel and play together as a unit — well, that’s gotta lie on someone. So yeah, I’m leaning toward giving little credit to Larry for developing Kuzma into the player he is today.
    Seeing the battle between Kuzma & Ivan Rabb up close, and then noting Rabb listed Kuzma as the most underrated PAC player coming into that draft, Kuzma's worth flew under the radar while he was at Utah. We needed him to be a 4 and battle for boards... which he did. His 3 shooting was underdeveloped, but everything else he did is the skill set we see.

    The NBA is a different game, and Kuzma adapted his game to go from an alpha at Utah to a complimentary player at the next level (which is the only way he could succeed in the NBA).

    Utah's coaches need to win games, Kuzma played the role he needed to here, he clearly got much better from Year 1 to Year 3.

    Jayce Johnson's development is another issue. I heard Larry talk on his radio show about working a little with JJ after practice to alter his follow through on his FT to point more to the basket instead of up to the ceiling, and he made 10 out of 10 (in practice). How did that hideous shot survive this long?
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 12-09-2018 at 09:05 AM.

  8. #68
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Wow. You really are tone deaf to your astounding sanctimony. Anyone who disagrees with you must be more of a coach groupie than care about the school. Well, have you ever thought about the fact that Spence Eccles and pretty much every sports writer, coach and other football expert in the nation agreed with those who have defended Whit and disagreed with you and Chris Hill? No. That probably hasn’t occurred to you, though now you admit you were wrong.
    Did it look something like this on your planet?


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #69
    I can't believe anyone associated with the U basketball program is happy right now, whether they be a fan, AD, coach or player. IMO, this team lacks a floor leader. Bibbins was an amazing leader last year in the mold of Brandon Taylor (the most underrated Ute of all-time). Barefield does not have the demeanor to be that leader and it is hard for a freshman to step into that role. I was hoping that Tillman would fill that role, but he seems to have regressed a little this year. I am hopeful that freshmen Gach, Allen, Battin and the kid who are injured can battle through this year and, with Tillman, become the core for advancing the program. We have some highly touted recruits set to join the program and hopefully they will be what we want them to be.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I have heard there is dysfunction in both the U amd y programs. Childs will turn pro after this year; at least one other player will leave the U. Fwiw.

    Only 1? If Pop hasn't already left, I assume he will leave. I also think Jones and Gaskin might be candidates to leave.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Only 1? If Pop hasn't already left, I assume he will leave. I also think Jones and Gaskin might be candidates to leave.
    Yeah, I'm not happy with this team but unless the Huntsmans or Eccles really wants a new coach bad enough to pay the buyout we need to accept that Larry is here for at least another year. With that in mind, he needs to retain and develop Gach, Allen, Battin, Tillman and Lahat. He also needs to hope that he has some instant contributors between Rylan Jones and the Finnish kid. He's also probably going to need to find either a grad transfer or JC help at guard and center. (Of course, he got a JC AA this year and the kid is pretty much useless--he pairs nicely with the former 4-star center who isn't good. You never know).

    Unfortunately, I don't think any of this is going to end the way we hope. It feels like the last couple of years of Boylen where I was trying to talk myself into Jimmy's army of JC transfers being able to come in and rescue his tenure while deep down I knew it was over.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I can't believe anyone associated with the U basketball program is happy right now, whether they be a fan, AD, coach or player. IMO, this team lacks a floor leader. Bibbins was an amazing leader last year in the mold of Brandon Taylor (the most underrated Ute of all-time).
    This nails most of the problem, IMO, in the context of our grind it out halfcourt offense, and defense. Bibbins & Taylor impacted their teams far beyond their individual skills. Jones has the temperament, he just doesn't have the chops to be on the floor. Bibbins & Taylor came in having figured out how to survive in a big man's game, then their personalities elevated their teams.

    Hard to assess personalities with the freshman, but Gach certainly has the potential to facilitate, to lead. Athleticsm, length, ball handling, shooting, vision, etc. He might show signs of being the leader for next year, but that won't be until February. Allen seems to still be adjusting to this level... and we're not even in league play. He's not an obvious liability, but he's not impacting the game.

    In the Minnesota game, it was Hendrix who looked most comfortable against that level of competition, but he's gone and the team's development has slowed/stalled. We lost raw horsepower, and with Lahat out we've got bodies on the front line but no promising potential.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Only 1? If Pop hasn't already left, I assume he will leave. I also think Jones and Gaskin might be candidates to leave.
    1 besides pop. Also think it might be gaskin

  14. #74
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    This nails most of the problem, IMO, in the context of our grind it out halfcourt offense, and defense. Bibbins & Taylor impacted their teams far beyond their individual skills. Jones has the temperament, he just doesn't have the chops to be on the floor. Bibbins & Taylor came in having figured out how to survive in a big man's game, then their personalities elevated their teams.

    Hard to assess personalities with the freshman, but Gach certainly has the potential to facilitate, to lead. Athleticsm, length, ball handling, shooting, vision, etc. He might show signs of being the leader for next year, but that won't be until February. Allen seems to still be adjusting to this level... and we're not even in league play. He's not an obvious liability, but he's not impacting the game.

    In the Minnesota game, it was Hendrix who looked most comfortable against that level of competition, but he's gone and the team's development has slowed/stalled. We lost raw horsepower, and with Lahat out we've got bodies on the front line but no promising potential.
    I was running errands yesterday and watched only the first half. I listened to some of the second half on the car radio while driving around, but stopped after it got too depressing. There´s a lot I don’t get about Larry — the early NIT losses to inferior teams, unexpected blowouts like the one to Gonzaga in the Tournament a few years back, the recruiting misses. (Remember what a coup everyone thought Jayce was? Even SU was excited.) There are more, IMO: His teams´ lack of poise in tight finishes, the weird perimeter-focused offense, the constant need for his teams to be yelled at before they will seriously rebound. I may be pilloried for this, but I think his reaction to the Nick Emery incident (including cancelling a BYU game) hurt the program.

    That said, he runs a good clean program (which may have something to do with his failure to win) and seems to have some real strengths: Developing big men (except for Jayce, so far), finding under the radar talent like Poeltl, Wright, Brandon Taylor, Bibbins, Kuzma. Still, I keep asking the same question I asked about Fassel, McBride, Archibald, Giac, and Boylen: Is there any reason to believe things will get better? I started to wonder that about Kyle W. too, but he´s answered the question with a yes, IMO. I doubt we´ll know the answer for a while, maybe not until the middle of the 2018-2019 season when we see how Larry´s current crop of youngsters has improved and what his highly-touted new guys can do. Then again, we have no feel for how patient Harlan or major boosters are going to be. It´s a depressing time.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 12-09-2018 at 10:43 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #75
    They will be big heavy next year with Van Komen & Carlson joining Jayce & Lahat; and Battin & Finnish recruit at 4.
    Will need a shooter—grad transfer.

    I am still trying to figure out the defensive plan they had for BYU?? Not doubling Childs from the start?? If the other 4 beat you, more power to them. Usually Connors or Hill does the D plan—-what were they possibly thinking??

    And Novak had the same amount of rebounds that I did yesterday—0.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Bobbins was a grad transfer, and Gach is a true. But yeah, that’ll get us into the NCAAs.

    As for wanting Larry out, you’re trying to set the bar in relation to Ray and Jimmy. That’s not the bar that’s been set at Utah. The bar was set by Gardner, Foster, Pimm and Majerus, and Larry has fallen well short of that standard. In that regard, he’s better than our previous two coaches, but what he’s done isn’t exactly meeting a standard for previous excellence.
    I agree, if the bar is "doing better than Giac and Boylen" then currently Krystkowiak shares company with Kerry Rupp, Joe Cravens and Dick Hunsaker.

    The season is young but we've got to see his signature improvement as the season goes on, AND build on it the next year. Otherwise it is time to go.


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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    I think you need to remove that last quote from your footer.
    I am responding to a master of passive aggression.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  18. #78
    Anyone know the buy out number at various stages?

  19. #79
    I'm trying to avoid the panic button on Kodiak just yet. Remember this same coach replacement talk was going on with Whit just a month ago when we'd lost to WA and Wazzu. He then went on to lead us to one of the top 3 seasons of all time at Utah. Even without high buyout numbers Kodiak deserves a chance through the 2019/20 season.


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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I can't believe anyone associated with the U basketball program is happy right now, whether they be a fan, AD, coach or player. IMO, this team lacks a floor leader. Bibbins was an amazing leader last year in the mold of Brandon Taylor (the most underrated Ute of all-time). Barefield does not have the demeanor to be that leader and it is hard for a freshman to step into that role. I was hoping that Tillman would fill that role, but he seems to have regressed a little this year. I am hopeful that freshmen Gach, Allen, Battin and the kid who are injured can battle through this year and, with Tillman, become the core for advancing the program. We have some highly touted recruits set to join the program and hopefully they will be what we want them to be.
    I think this is right on. We are missing the floor leader, and a 3 point assasin. But this team has some talent. We have some bad losses, but the Tulsa win is looking better (they have since beat OK St and KSU).

    If if the coaches can get the guys playing together as a team in time for league play, we might be able to get close to .500 in league play.

    The coaches certainly have a lot of material to use for things this team has to work on.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I'm trying to avoid the panic button on Kodiak just yet. Remember this same coach replacement talk was going on with Whit just a month ago when we'd lost to WA and Wazzu. He then went on to lead us to one of the top 3 seasons of all time at Utah. Even without high buyout numbers Kodiak deserves a chance through the 2019/20 season.


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    I agree that it is too early to talk about replacing Coach K. BUT, I think any analogies to Whittingham are stupid. Whittingham has 2 victories in elite-level bowl games (football's version of the final four), 1 NATTY (the NCAA said so), TONS of evidence of a culture that gets the best from the kids, and he consistently outperforms on the field. Anyone that was talking about replacing Whit this year (ahem, LA) is crazy!!!!

    Now, compare that to Coach K. Two NCAA tourney appearances, 1 deep run in the NIT (the NIT! That's the basketball equivalent of the Potato Bowl), and some NBA draft picks created out of nothing. He has been good at getting the program back on its feet, but nothing more.

    Comparing Whit to Coach K is like comparing Urban at Utah to Jim Fassell at Utah.

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I agree that it is too early to talk about replacing Coach K. BUT, I think any analogies to Whittingham are stupid. Whittingham has 2 victories in elite-level bowl games (football's version of the final four), 1 NATTY (the NCAA said so), TONS of evidence of a culture that gets the best from the kids, and he consistently outperforms on the field. Anyone that was talking about replacing Whit this year (ahem, LA) is crazy!!!!

    Now, compare that to Coach K. Two NCAA tourney appearances, 1 deep run in the NIT (the NIT! That's the basketball equivalent of the Potato Bowl), and some NBA draft picks created out of nothing. He has been good at getting the program back on its feet, but nothing more.

    Comparing Whit to Coach K is like comparing Urban at Utah to Jim Fassell at Utah.
    And Whit has none of the player turnover that is a big part of the bb program. If I were Harlan, I would at a minimum give LK to the end of next year to see if next year's freshmen and this year's freshmen look like they are going to be really good 2-4 years from now. If we are on that trajectory, that would be great.

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Snafu,
    I don't know that too many people are saying Larry should go but don't you get a little worried at the lack of an identity for basketball under Larry? I was so excited following the first two seasons because they played hard and they played together. I haven't seen enough consistency in that regard. It is not the culture even though Larry likes to say it is. This team is young but you can insist on playing hard and playing together even as you're developing. Speaking of development, I don't see a commitment to player development (I'm a broken record on this one). I worry that Larry's staff isn't a player-friendly staff. I don't mean that they should be lenient and buddy-buddy, I mean that they should have the players' development and team development first and foremost in their minds. I don't see a Jeff Judkins on this staff. Given the emphasis that is growing on player development in the NBA, I would think universities who have to rely on two, three and four-year players (not one-and-dones) would be realizing the need for development. All Larry has to do is look down the road to see one of the best franchises right now in the NBA at development. I do realize this is easier said than done. A coach has to get a team ready to play one or two teams a week throughout the season. That leaves very little time for skill development given the academic commitment players need to have. Player commitment to development is paramount but a coaching staff ought to be very engaged with student athletes in this space. I look no further than Jayce Johnson at the free throw line to see there is a gap.

    On the local front, it's time for Larry to embrace playing all of the local teams. Alternating home games with BYU and USU should be happening every year. I've heard UVU, Weber and SUU are willing to come to SLC every season. Play two of those three every season. It seems to me we need to bring a stronger care factor back to the program about being the big Dawg in the state. BYU really wanted this game today. Utah did not.
    'biq,
    All of those points are valid concerns. It's disappointing to see a four star kid like JJ that isn't more developed after three years in the program. I was certainly expecting a better start to this season than what we are seeing. As others have said, I think this team lacks leadership on the floor. It's pretty clear that Barefield is not going to be that guy for us. He will get hot on a few nights and disappear for the rest. Tillman doesn't appear to be that guy. Which leaves a bunch of true freshman that need time to figure things out. Hopefully sooner than later. If Larry can't get things figured out for next year with the talent coming in than I think we will need to look at making a change.

  24. #84
    I worry that Larry's staff isn't a player-friendly staff.

    I have heard several people say this is a big problem with this staff--LK has no Jeff Judkins, as RM did.


  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    Anyone know the buy out number at various stages?
    My understanding is that it was in excess of $15M before Dec. 1, 2018. Presumably, it's less now because this year's salary is guaranteed, even if we found Larry in Van Cott Hall with 10 dead hookers in a room.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I think this is an interesting question. The bar you're referring to is ancient history now. We are now a football school. You can't pay students to go to basketball games now. So the bar must include recent history as well.

    I guess in the end, the only question that matters is whether or not we can do better with someone else.
    The old, established money at Utah is still in basketball -- witness the first-rate hoops facility we have. Think we built that in mind with just merely being marginally better than what Ray and Jimmy did? The bar they've set is the bar many alumni in my demo (40-plus) have set for the program. Students not attending hardly changes the perspective vested interests and shareholders have in the program.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I worry that Larry's staff isn't a player-friendly staff.

    I have heard several people say this is a big problem with this staff--LK has no Jeff Judkins, as RM did.
    This is pretty much common knowledge at this point, isn't it? Maybe DeMarlo is that guy. I've heard little about Tommy or Andy to believe they are.

    I was really down on the staff in the time between the Gonzaga and Boise State flameouts. Then they went out and got two great classes, and I stopped worrying about them. But seriously, how many coaching staffs stay intact for as long as Larry's has? I would say very few. You're telling me that none of our guys has had a chance to step out and lead their own program? If they haven't, what's that say about them as coaches?

    Also, for all the talk about K's salary, people forget Tommy is one of the highest-paid assistants in the country. I think there needs to be a shakeup of some kind and get some fresh blood in the program. I'm not talking about firing Larry -- finances dictate he gets through the 2019-20 season at the very least (His contract absolutely should be restructured). But something different has to be done. We're stale.

    The money we're pouring into the program -- from the facility to salaries -- it's ridiculous what we're getting on the floor right now.

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    The old, established money at Utah is still in basketball -- witness the first-rate hoops facility we have. Think we built that in mind with just merely being marginally better than what Ray and Jimmy did? The bar they've set is the bar many alumni in my demo (40-plus) have set for the program. Students not attending hardly changes the perspective vested interests and shareholders have in the program.
    You only have to look at the first row of seats on the floor--the Eccles family, Huntsman family, Kem Gardner family, Richie Smith (Smith's Food King) family.

  29. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I agree that it is too early to talk about replacing Coach K. BUT, I think any analogies to Whittingham are stupid. Whittingham has 2 victories in elite-level bowl games (football's version of the final four), 1 NATTY (the NCAA said so), TONS of evidence of a culture that gets the best from the kids, and he consistently outperforms on the field. Anyone that was talking about replacing Whit this year (ahem, LA) is crazy!!!!

    Now, compare that to Coach K. Two NCAA tourney appearances, 1 deep run in the NIT (the NIT! That's the basketball equivalent of the Potato Bowl), and some NBA draft picks created out of nothing. He has been good at getting the program back on its feet, but nothing more.

    Comparing Whit to Coach K is like comparing Urban at Utah to Jim Fassell at Utah.
    Oh I'm not comparing K to Whit, one is a Utah HOF'er and the other isn't and that isn't going to change. It was more of a critique of fans who jump on the "We need change yesterday" bandwagon. In fact pointing out Whit was to say, "Look, this is a coach that (all of the reasons you just mentioned), and some fickle mushhead fans want HIM to go".

  30. #90
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    this season should not be all that unexpected, Utah lost 4 Seniors and 75% of the production from last year's team. I still think Larry is an outstanding coach. He essentially took kids like Rawlson, Bibbins and Collette from lesser programs and had this team near the top of the conference. I believe what we are watching today is partially due to Larry's bout with cancer and a bad recruiting period.

    Utah Basketball is suffering the same ailment that BYU Football fans are suffering. The fans expectation of Utah basketball is the standard that Majerus left, and BYU Fans expectation is the same with Lavell. Those periods were outliers and not true representations of the programs.


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