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Thread: The Russell Nelson Era: Changes in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Should I know this name?
    She does a lot of research on why millenials are leaving the church, etc. Has a pretty good presence on the SLTrib. May have been involved in the origins of Ordain Women, but I can't remember.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    She does a lot of research on why millenials are leaving the church, etc. Has a pretty good presence on the SLTrib. May have been involved in the origins of Ordain Women, but I can't remember.
    And she didn’t actually debunk anything. She admitted she’s just as clueless as the rest of us.
    People who wear glasses/contacts are not allowed to celbrqte the rear 2020. Go eat some carrots or get LASIK.

  3. #123
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Should I know this name?
    She writes a lot about the church, leans progressive, is pretty fair in my experience reading her stuff. I usually hear about her work from others.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    And she didn’t actually debunk anything. She admitted she’s just as clueless as the rest of us.
    Yeah, that was what caused me to ask. LA made it sound like she is well known or well respected or both, but she didn't say anything except that she was wrong last time.

  5. #125
    I think Jana Reiss' book "Flunking Sainthood" is a must read. Really meaningful to me anyway.

  6. #126
    I took a poll on twitter for people to vote on whether or not there would be changes to the Wow, temple numbers, and missionary program. So far I have about 25 responses on each question. 52% think the wow will change, 64% think the temple numbers will go way up and 88% think there will be changes to the missionary program. Thats a majority of each and my "n" is clearly high enough that I feel safe saying that each of these rumors are confirmed.

  7. #127
    Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...ion-april-2019
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...ion-april-2019

    Thank goodness.

  9. #129
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...ion-april-2019
    Key text:

    At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make.

    A nonmember parent or parents (including LGBT parents) can request that their baby be blessed by a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder. These parents need to understand that congregation members will contact them periodically, and that when the child who has been blessed reaches 8 years of age, a Church member will contact them and propose that the child be baptized.

    Previously, our Handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.

    The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families. In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill. We want to reduce the hate and contention so common today. We are optimistic that a majority of people — whatever their beliefs and orientations — long for better understanding and less contentious communications. That is surely our desire, and we seek the help of our members and others to attain it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #130
    While I am happy about the change. I believed the policy was wrong from the start. Changes like these cause many to doubt. Did God's will change in the past 4 years? I understand the difference between policy and doctrine, but many don't.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    While I am happy about the change. I believed the policy was wrong from the start. Changes like these cause many to doubt. Did God's will change in the past 4 years? I understand the difference between policy and doctrine, but many don't.
    In my opinion, and maybe its a hope, is that had this policy not been leaked and the leaders had a chance to discuss it further, they may have come to the conclusions of today. I think the fact that it got leaked, they felt their hand was forced and went with it.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    ...….I believed the policy was wrong from the start.......
    Yeah anybody with an ounce of common sense did. Gonna happily this one behind us.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  13. #133
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...ion-april-2019
    Key text:

    At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make.

    A nonmember parent or parents (including LGBT parents) can request that their baby be blessed by a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder. These parents need to understand that congregation members will contact them periodically, and that when the child who has been blessed reaches 8 years of age, a Church member will contact them and propose that the child be baptized.

    Previously, our Handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.

    The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families. In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill. We want to reduce the hate and contention so common today. We are optimistic that a majority of people — whatever their beliefs and orientations — long for better understanding and less contentious communications. That is surely our desire, and we seek the help of our members and others to attain it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #134
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Regarding the policy change on children of the same-sex parents, my opinion is that we should take “yes“ for an answer. It seems to me the prior policy was based on treating those kids the same as children of polygamist parents, which might have seemed logical at the time, but on reflection is not. Polygamy is illegal; same-sex marriage is not.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #135
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    I'll argue that LDS church leaders look at baptism rates the last few years and recognized it has slowed to a crawl, despite having more missionaries than ever, and decided "all hands on deck"



    okay not really, but I was late to this thread and all of the good commentary had already been posted

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Regarding the policy change on children of the same-sex parents, my opinion is that we should take “yes“ for an answer. It seems to me the prior policy was based on treating those kids the same as children of polygamist parents, which might have seemed logical at the time, but on reflection is not. Polygamy is illegal; same-sex marriage is not.
    It never seemed logical.

  17. #137
    This is to stop the bleeding. This policy is having a big effect on membership, especially among millennials.

  18. #138
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Russell Nelson Era: Changes in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    It never seemed logical.
    It can seem logical but only if one does not think it through, IMO. I don’t think that was done.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-04-2019 at 03:34 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #139
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    This is to stop the bleeding. This policy is having a big effect on membership, especially among millennials.
    Do you really think so? Are data available?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #140
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Do you really think so? Are data available?
    I know this doesn't directly deal with the subject discussed, but clearly growth has slowed. In the 80's there were years when nearly 500k were joining every year.

    Year Total membership New converts added Percentage growth
    2013 15,082,028 299,555 2.03%
    2014 15,372,337 290,309 1.92%
    2015 15,634,199 261,862 1.70%
    2016 15,882,417 248,218 1.59%
    2017 16,118,169 233,729 1.47%
    https://religionnews.com/2018/04/13/...ly-in-the-u-s/

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-declines.html\

    I blame BYU

  21. #141
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    I know this doesn't directly deal with the subject discussed, but clearly growth has slowed. In the 80's there were years when nearly 500k were joining every year.

    Year Total membership New converts added Percentage growth
    2013 15,082,028 299,555 2.03%
    2014 15,372,337 290,309 1.92%
    2015 15,634,199 261,862 1.70%
    2016 15,882,417 248,218 1.59%
    2017 16,118,169 233,729 1.47%
    https://religionnews.com/2018/04/13/...ly-in-the-u-s/

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-declines.html\

    I blame BYU
    No doubt it is their fault.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Do you really think so? Are data available?
    Yes I really think so. Based on comments I have heard.

  23. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    No doubt it is their fault.
    It's their fault because the football program is down. I would guess the 60,000 convert decrease correlates directly to the state of the football program. If only they would spend more money on it!

  24. #144
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Yes I really think so. Based on comments I have heard.
    If that's a trend we will soon be in an interesting era in the church's history. For much of the 20th century many (most?) members saw steady growth as a sign of the church's divinity. From this believer's perspective, however, since the beginning of life on earth "membership" as we now understand it has always included only a tiny percentage of the people on the planet. That's not an easy concept for some members to embrace. Some years ago a sociology prof at Washington named Rodney Stark wrote a book claiming that "within a century there may well be more than 250 million Latter-day Saints," and that the church would be a phenomenon for sociologists of religion: "the chance to watch an extraordinarily rare event, the rise of a new world faith." I remember thinking, "Well, we'll see." It hasn't worked out that way so far.

    https://rsc.byu.edu/es/archived/latt...rise-new-world
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-04-2019 at 04:32 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    If that's a trend we will soon be in an interesting era in the church's history. For much of the 20th century many (most?) members saw steady growth as a sign of the church's divinity. For this believer's perspective, however, since the beginning of life on earth "membership" as we now understand it has always included only a tiny percentage of the people on the planet. That's not an easy concept for some members to embrace. Some years ago a sociology prof at Washington named Rodney Stark wrote a book claiming that "within a century there may well be more than 250 million Latter-day Saints," and that the church would be a phenomenon for sociologists of religion: "the chance to watch an extraordinarily rare event, the rise of a new world faith." I remember thinking, "Well, we'll see." It hasn't worked out that way so far.

    https://rsc.byu.edu/es/archived/latt...rise-new-world
    It wasn't an easy concept for Joseph Smith to embrace. He had envisioned that kings and rulers would flock to the religion. I remember seeing a somewhat apologetic letter from Brigham Young as he was sending converts to the states who were the poor and would be a strain on the community. Those weights on society are our pioneer ancestors. The verdict is still out on whether they and their progeny turned out okay.

  26. #146
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    It wasn't an easy concept for Joseph Smith to embrace. He had envisioned that kings and rulers would flock to the religion. I remember seeing a somewhat apologetic letter from Brigham Young as he was sending converts to the states who were the poor and would be a strain on the community. Those weights on society are our pioneer ancestors. The verdict is still out on whether they and their progeny turned out okay.
    There are a few who seem to be doing well.

    Seriously, to me church growth rate is not something to hang my convictions on. I do hope it grows because I believe it is indeed divine. And there is Daniel 2 to consider. We'll see what happens!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    There are a few who seem to be doing well.

    Seriously, to me church growth rate is not something to hang my convictions on. I do hope it grows because I believe it is indeed divine. And there is Daniel 2 to consider. We'll see what happens!
    I am interested to see if that stagnating growth trends the same as religious growth in general. It seems to expand far beyond LDS borders in that millenials in general are increasingly identifying as 'nones'.

    I've always been with you though in this regard, I never thought we would become a dominant religion. Even when Christ was on earth he offended a lot and had many who turned away, plus we have those prophecies that even the very elect will turn away... so...

    On a side note, a missionary friend from many years ago who was a convert and ended up leaving the church (but has many fond feelings towards it still) once was critical of our desire to be mainstream. He said, "Mormonism has power in its weirdness..." I kind of agree.

  28. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Some years ago a sociology prof at Washington named Rodney Stark wrote a book claiming that "within a century there may well be more than 250 million Latter-day Saints,"
    And Stark just fit the current population with purely exponential growth to arrive at his prediction, something only a sociologist could call science.

    That fact that so few of God's children have/want God's gospel has always been one of my nagging sources of doubt. I personally find that question more compelling and interesting than silly stuff about the Book of Abraham.

  29. #149
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I am interested to see if that stagnating growth trends the same as religious growth in general. It seems to expand far beyond LDS borders in that millenials in general are increasingly identifying as 'nones'.

    I've always been with you though in this regard, I never thought we would become a dominant religion. Even when Christ was on earth he offended a lot and had many who turned away, plus we have those prophecies that even the very elect will turn away... so...

    On a side note, a missionary friend from many years ago who was a convert and ended up leaving the church (but has many fond feelings towards it still) once was critical of our desire to be mainstream. He said, "Mormonism has power in its weirdness..." I kind of agree.
    So do I. In its beginnings Christianity was pretty doggone weird: The son of God himself was born as a humble mortal who was known only to a small group of people in a tiny corner of the world, taught for three years, was largely rejected by his own people, died an ignominious death, and was then resurrected -- and thereby made possible the eternal salvation of all mankind, living or dead. Crazy.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #150
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    That fact that so few of God's children have/want God's gospel has always been one of my nagging sources of doubt. I personally find that question more compelling and interesting than silly stuff about the Book of Abraham.
    I agree -- it's an excellent question. What I like about our faith is its true universality -- every single person will have a full and fair opportunity to understand and accept or reject it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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