“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I think Jana Reiss' book "Flunking Sainthood" is a must read. Really meaningful to me anyway.
I took a poll on twitter for people to vote on whether or not there would be changes to the Wow, temple numbers, and missionary program. So far I have about 25 responses on each question. 52% think the wow will change, 64% think the temple numbers will go way up and 88% think there will be changes to the missionary program. Thats a majority of each and my "n" is clearly high enough that I feel safe saying that each of these rumors are confirmed.
Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...ion-april-2019
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Key text:
At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make.
A nonmember parent or parents (including LGBT parents) can request that their baby be blessed by a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder. These parents need to understand that congregation members will contact them periodically, and that when the child who has been blessed reaches 8 years of age, a Church member will contact them and propose that the child be baptized.
Previously, our Handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.
The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families. In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill. We want to reduce the hate and contention so common today. We are optimistic that a majority of people — whatever their beliefs and orientations — long for better understanding and less contentious communications. That is surely our desire, and we seek the help of our members and others to attain it.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
While I am happy about the change. I believed the policy was wrong from the start. Changes like these cause many to doubt. Did God's will change in the past 4 years? I understand the difference between policy and doctrine, but many don't.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Key text:
At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make.
A nonmember parent or parents (including LGBT parents) can request that their baby be blessed by a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder. These parents need to understand that congregation members will contact them periodically, and that when the child who has been blessed reaches 8 years of age, a Church member will contact them and propose that the child be baptized.
Previously, our Handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.
The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families. In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill. We want to reduce the hate and contention so common today. We are optimistic that a majority of people — whatever their beliefs and orientations — long for better understanding and less contentious communications. That is surely our desire, and we seek the help of our members and others to attain it.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Regarding the policy change on children of the same-sex parents, my opinion is that we should take “yes“ for an answer. It seems to me the prior policy was based on treating those kids the same as children of polygamist parents, which might have seemed logical at the time, but on reflection is not. Polygamy is illegal; same-sex marriage is not.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I'll argue that LDS church leaders look at baptism rates the last few years and recognized it has slowed to a crawl, despite having more missionaries than ever, and decided "all hands on deck"
okay not really, but I was late to this thread and all of the good commentary had already been posted
This is to stop the bleeding. This policy is having a big effect on membership, especially among millennials.
Last edited by LA Ute; 04-04-2019 at 02:34 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I know this doesn't directly deal with the subject discussed, but clearly growth has slowed. In the 80's there were years when nearly 500k were joining every year.
https://religionnews.com/2018/04/13/...ly-in-the-u-s/
Year Total membership New converts added Percentage growth 2013 15,082,028 299,555 2.03% 2014 15,372,337 290,309 1.92% 2015 15,634,199 261,862 1.70% 2016 15,882,417 248,218 1.59% 2017 16,118,169 233,729 1.47%
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-declines.html\
I blame BYU
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
If that's a trend we will soon be in an interesting era in the church's history. For much of the 20th century many (most?) members saw steady growth as a sign of the church's divinity. From this believer's perspective, however, since the beginning of life on earth "membership" as we now understand it has always included only a tiny percentage of the people on the planet. That's not an easy concept for some members to embrace. Some years ago a sociology prof at Washington named Rodney Stark wrote a book claiming that "within a century there may well be more than 250 million Latter-day Saints," and that the church would be a phenomenon for sociologists of religion: "the chance to watch an extraordinarily rare event, the rise of a new world faith." I remember thinking, "Well, we'll see." It hasn't worked out that way so far.
https://rsc.byu.edu/es/archived/latt...rise-new-world
Last edited by LA Ute; 04-04-2019 at 03:32 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
It wasn't an easy concept for Joseph Smith to embrace. He had envisioned that kings and rulers would flock to the religion. I remember seeing a somewhat apologetic letter from Brigham Young as he was sending converts to the states who were the poor and would be a strain on the community. Those weights on society are our pioneer ancestors. The verdict is still out on whether they and their progeny turned out okay.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I am interested to see if that stagnating growth trends the same as religious growth in general. It seems to expand far beyond LDS borders in that millenials in general are increasingly identifying as 'nones'.
I've always been with you though in this regard, I never thought we would become a dominant religion. Even when Christ was on earth he offended a lot and had many who turned away, plus we have those prophecies that even the very elect will turn away... so...
On a side note, a missionary friend from many years ago who was a convert and ended up leaving the church (but has many fond feelings towards it still) once was critical of our desire to be mainstream. He said, "Mormonism has power in its weirdness..." I kind of agree.
And Stark just fit the current population with purely exponential growth to arrive at his prediction, something only a sociologist could call science.
That fact that so few of God's children have/want God's gospel has always been one of my nagging sources of doubt. I personally find that question more compelling and interesting than silly stuff about the Book of Abraham.
So do I. In its beginnings Christianity was pretty doggone weird: The son of God himself was born as a humble mortal who was known only to a small group of people in a tiny corner of the world, taught for three years, was largely rejected by his own people, died an ignominious death, and was then resurrected -- and thereby made possible the eternal salvation of all mankind, living or dead. Crazy.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell