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Thread: The Russell Nelson Era: Changes in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I've always been with you though in this regard, I never thought we would become a dominant religion. Even when Christ was on earth he offended a lot and had many who turned away, plus we have those prophecies that even the very elect will turn away... so...
    We kinda get conflicting messages/prophecies, though. Plenty of scriptures indicate that we will be small in number. But we also have prophecies from Joseph Smith and Daniel and others about incredible growth. Of course, we've already seen miraculous growth.

    I like to think there's one more day of pentecost out there waiting to happen.

  2. #152
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    We kinda get conflicting messages/prophecies, though. Plenty of scriptures indicate that we will be small in number. But we also have prophecies from Joseph Smith and Daniel and others about incredible growth. Of course, we've already seen miraculous growth.

    I like to think there's one more day of pentecost out there waiting to happen.
    I guess the question is, what does Daniel 2 mean when it says the stone will "fill the whole earth?" It means something big but it might not men 250 million members. It would be cool if it did.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Regarding the policy change on children of the same-sex parents, my opinion is that we should take “yes“ for an answer. It seems to me the prior policy was based on treating those kids the same as children of polygamist parents, which might have seemed logical at the time, but on reflection is not. Polygamy is illegal; same-sex marriage is not.
    The difficulty I have with this is that President Nelson doubled down on the "policy" in a speech given at BYU-H by saying that it resulted from the "Prophetic Process." https://www.thechurchnews.com/archiv...lennials-43657.

    Sharing personal experiences he has had working with the First Presidency while serving in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, President Nelson spoke of the process they — the 15 men sustained as prophets, seers and revelators — go through when discussing issues in the Church.
    “The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together and share all the Lord has directed us to understand and to feel, individually and collectively,” he said. “And then, we watch the Lord move upon the President of the Church to proclaim the Lord’s will.”
    This “prophetic process” — which also includes fasting, prayer, studying, pondering, counseling with each other as they wrestle with the issue — was followed in 2012 with the change in age for missionary service, as well as the recent additions to the Church’s handbook, consequent to the legalization of same-sex marriage in some countries, President Nelson said.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Do you really think so? Are data available?
    I think the negative effect of this was more about attrition than growth. I remember at the time there was a huge increase (at least locally) of record removal requests. I think it also drove more than a few highly active members towards inactivity.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    I think the negative effect of this was more about attrition than growth. I remember at the time there was a huge increase (at least locally) of record removal requests. I think it also drove more than a few highly active members towards inactivity.
    As someone who knows a lot of people who haven’t been active for years, I can tell you that policy change was the catalyst for them to jump through the hoops to have their names removed

    Let’s be honest, the LDS church doesn’t make it easy to drop out, so many just never bother. That policy really spurred a lot of people to bother in my experience


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  6. #156
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post

    Let’s be honest, the LDS church doesn’t make it easy to drop out, so many just never bother. That policy really spurred a lot of people to bother in my experience
    I think this is probably true.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #157
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Davis Bitton’s presentation seems relevant to this discussion.

    I Don’t Have a Testimony of the History of the Church

    https://www.fairmormon.org/conferenc...-of-the-church

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #158

    The Russell Nelson Era: Changes in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    As someone who knows a lot of people who haven’t been active for years, I can tell you that policy change was the catalyst for them to jump through the hoops to have their names removed

    Let’s be honest, the LDS church doesn’t make it easy to drop out, so many just never bother. That policy really spurred a lot of people to bother in my experience


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    This was the experience for our local congregation. 9 people had their names removed, 7 had never darkened the doors of the church in at least their adult lives. 2 were a couple who had been active members but had quit coming about a decade ago.

    Lots of faithful members were rocked by this though and struggled with it.

    I should add that for a brief period during this time anyone who made the request didn't have to jump through the regular hoops, they simply honored the request immediately.




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    Last edited by Rocker Ute; 04-05-2019 at 08:17 AM.

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I should add that for a brief period during this time anyone who made the request didn't have to jump through the regular hoops, they simply honored the request immediately.
    What are the regular hoops? I thought they just had to make a request in person or in writing to the bishop.

    We didn't have anyone ask out over this in my little Colorado ward.

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    What are the regular hoops? I thought they just had to make a request in person or in writing to the bishop.

    We didn't have anyone ask out over this in my little Colorado ward.
    They've actually made some minor changes to this since this all happened, but basically it is this:

    A member needs to send a written and signed letter to their bishop requesting their names be removed from the records. The bishop needs to go and confirm with them that this is their request and review with them that they understand the consequences - specifically any baptismal or temple covenants they make are void and that if they are to return they will need to be baptized again. Then the bishop submits it to the Stake President and writes a letter to the person again outlining the consequences and letting them know they have 30 days to rescind their request. After that 30 days, the stake president sends the request to church HQ and the name is removed.

    What has been changed since is that they will waive the 30 day wait period if you request it and process it immediately; or if a request is made directly to church HQ, that request will be sent to the Stake President and if there is no response by the SP in 60 days they'll remove your records.

    So, it isn't climbing Everest. But during that time when the old policy came out, if you made the request they simply cut out the whole bishop and stake president and waiting period part and honored it. Some might scoff at the waiting period, but I actually had a friend whose daughter made this request, then after talking to her mom about it a bit and understanding the consequences decided she had made a mistake and decided to keep her membership.

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Davis Bitton’s presentation seems relevant to this discussion.

    I Don’t Have a Testimony of the History of the Church

    https://www.fairmormon.org/conferenc...-of-the-church
    That was a good article. I enjoyed it. I follow a similar thought process in my belief.

  12. #162
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is is a compassionate, well-researched, thoughtfully written piece.

    A Look at the Church’s Change of Policy on Same-Sex Couples and their Children

    https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2019...their-children

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This is is a compassionate, well-researched, thoughtfully written piece.

    A Look at the Church’s Change of Policy on Same-Sex Couples and their Children

    https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2019...their-children
    I think they could (should?) have saved a lot of heartache and frustration if they had phrased it all and rolled it all out differently. They could have just said that First Presidency approval would be necessary to baptize children of LGBTQ parents and explained that they just wanted to speak with the parents first to avoid potential problems in the future. That would have kept the spirit of the rule without appearing to be so harsh.

  14. #164
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I think they could (should?) have saved a lot of heartache and frustration if they had phrased it all and rolled it all out differently. They could have just said that First Presidency approval would be necessary to baptize children of LGBTQ parents and explained that they just wanted to speak with the parents first to avoid potential problems in the future. That would have kept the spirit of the rule without appearing to be so harsh.
    I am not sure the policy was reviewed carefully enough before it was issued.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I guess the question is, what does Daniel 2 mean when it says the stone will "fill the whole earth?" It means something big but it might not men 250 million members. It would be cool if it did.
    Maybe Daniel was referring to the Pentecostals. They have gone from non-existence in 1900 to nearly 300 million members worldwide.

  16. #166
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Maybe Daniel was referring to the Pentecostals. They have gone from non-existence in 1900 to nearly 300 million members worldwide.
    You’re upsetting my narrative.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    You’re upsetting my narrative.
    Well we could get into what members really are....since every religion reports that far differently.


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  18. #168
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Russell Nelson Era: Changes in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Well we could get into what members really are....since every religion reports that far differently.
    Now my narrative is stone cold dead.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-06-2019 at 11:00 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #169
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    “It is clear that in our daily labors, in our families, and in our Church associations is a significant share of the clinical material that God has given us to practice on. This means we will experience at each others’ hands some pain, some lack of finesse, and certainly some genuine mistakes. In fact, as we see each other developing and growing (as well as sometimes when we are not at our best), we are privy to an intimate and precious thing.”

    --Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2007 edition), loc. 879, kindle Edition

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #170
    What am I supposed to do with all these Starbucks gift cards and short shorts? Also, how are all these missionaries supposed to learn how long they are going to serve?


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  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    What am I supposed to do with all these Starbucks gift cards and short shorts? Also, how are all these missionaries supposed to learn how long they are going to serve?


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    You can gift the starbucks to me. Diehard Ute runs on coffee.


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  22. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    You can gift the starbucks to me. Diehard Ute runs on coffee.


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    Actually, for some reason it seems like people give me Starbucks gift cards all the time. Next one is coming your way.


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  23. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Actually, for some reason it seems like people give me Starbucks gift cards all the time. Next one is coming your way.


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    They have lots of good non coffee stuff. Their food is really good, and their non coffee drinks are pretty good too

    I of course stick to coffee....especially on weekends like this. 22 hours of traffic and crowd control at conference.


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  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    They have lots of good non coffee stuff. Their food is really good, and their non coffee drinks are pretty good too

    I of course stick to coffee....especially on weekends like this. 22 hours of traffic and crowd control at conference.


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    Yeah I've used them for that stuff before but it is kind of a pain if you don't go there regularly if you know what I mean. Kind of like, not really destination food. Plus I've been avoiding sugar for a while now.

    So I usually pass on the cards to people who will enjoy them more than me.


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  25. #175
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Yeah I've used them for that stuff before but it is kind of a pain if you don't go there regularly if you know what I mean. Kind of like, not really destination food. Plus I've been avoiding sugar for a while now.

    So I usually pass on the cards to people who will enjoy them more than me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I get hot chocolate there once or twice a year. Usually during the Christmas season, for some reason.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    They have lots of good non coffee stuff. Their food is really good, and their non coffee drinks are pretty good too

    I of course stick to coffee....especially on weekends like this. 22 hours of traffic and crowd control at conference.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Bleh! What food are you speaking of? The assorted muffins and brownies that I have tried there are not good.

    And, before you ask, SeattleUte, no, I have never tried their brioche.

  27. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Bleh! What food are you speaking of? The assorted muffins and brownies that I have tried there are not good.

    And, before you ask, SeattleUte, no, I have never tried their brioche.
    Their breakfast sandwiches are good, the sous vide egg bites are also good. And their cheese danish is pretty good too if you get it warmed.




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  28. #178
    I am an active member of the LDS Church. I attend Sunday meetings, hold callings, have been a temple worker and a regular attendee. Having said this, I acknowledge that on the liberal - conservative spectrum within the LDS Church I am far to the left and on a general liberal - conservative spectrum I am left-center. It has been interesting to me to watch church leadership respond to the pandemic. It is interesting because they must consider members throughout the world and not simply those within a city, county, state or country. Their initial response attempted to address things by locality, closing some temples and suspending meetings in hot spots like Italy, they then suspended Sunday services globally and reduced the number of ordinances in which you could participate in temples. That was short-lived and all temple activity was suspended. This week they released guidelines on a number of things but have not, to my knowledge, lifted the suspension of Sunday services or temple activities. It will be interesting to me to see how they respond now that states and countries are beginning to lift restrictions. Will they act globally or will they go county, by county, state by state and country by country and, if the latter, how much authority will they delegate to local leaders and on what basis? Will they simply follow the lead of political leaders and when political leaders allow for gatherings in excess of a certain number allow local church leaders to do the same? I certainly hope not.

  29. #179
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I am an active member of the LDS Church. I attend Sunday meetings, hold callings, have been a temple worker and a regular attendee. Having said this, I acknowledge that on the liberal - conservative spectrum within the LDS Church I am far to the left and on a general liberal - conservative spectrum I am left-center. It has been interesting to me to watch church leadership respond to the pandemic. It is interesting because they must consider members throughout the world and not simply those within a city, county, state or country. Their initial response attempted to address things by locality, closing some temples and suspending meetings in hot spots like Italy, they then suspended Sunday services globally and reduced the number of ordinances in which you could participate in temples. That was short-lived and all temple activity was suspended. This week they released guidelines on a number of things but have not, to my knowledge, lifted the suspension of Sunday services or temple activities. It will be interesting to me to see how they respond now that states and countries are beginning to lift restrictions. Will they act globally or will they go county, by county, state by state and country by country and, if the latter, how much authority will they delegate to local leaders and on what basis? Will they simply follow the lead of political leaders and when political leaders allow for gatherings in excess of a certain number allow local church leaders to do the same? I certainly hope not.
    My wife is immuno-supressed we've already had discussions about not attending the temple or any church meetings for the foreseeable future. It's simply too risky, and I'm not willing to take that chance.

    We are fortunate/blessed that President Nelson with his medical background was called during this unique time. I have faith he will make the appropriate decisions.
    Last edited by Scorcho; 04-18-2020 at 09:45 PM.

  30. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    My wife is immuno-supressed we've already had discussions about not attending the temple or any church meetings for the foreseeable future. It's simply too risky, and I'm not willing to take that chance.

    We are fortunate/blessed that President Nelson with his medical background was called during this unique time. I have faith he will make the appropriate decisions.
    My wife is in the same boat. I am in the bishopric now, and I'd feel torn between church duty and family if they start meeting again. I'm not sure how many people would understand any reticence on my part.

    Also, I really have enjoyed our little Sunday services at home. We have one kid and one adult give a talk each week, and it's nice. My son is a deacon, and he passes the sacrament to us. I could do quarantine forever. For a homebody like me, this is the life. I was thinking about things starting up again in the summer, and a part of me was dreading having to go out to meetings, ward activities, youth activities, sports practices, and social engagements all the time.

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