Marriage > Education

[UtahDan]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/03/t...marry?lang=eng

“Many people around me—at home, at school, and at work—were very concerned about how this relationship would affect my education,” Ane says. “They would question whether I even knew this relationship was going to last.“Friends my age thought that getting married would prevent me from attending university,” she said. “To them, it seemed like I would be wasting my talents and opportunities.”
...

“All these sources talk about how important both marriage and education are,” Ane says. As she continued in her search for direction, clarity finally came in a conversation with an institute leader. “She told me, ‘When you have the right person and the right place (the temple), it’s the right time!’” Ane remembers. “This really eased my mind. I received many promptings from the Spirit confirming that this was the path I should take. I came to know that Benjamin and I would get married and that it was the right thing for me to do at this time.”

Ane knew that she would still work toward getting an education, because that was also something that the Lord’s prophets encourage. But for now she knew that marriage would be her first priority.
Ane felt sad because she knew that few people would consider her marriage at that age something to be happy about. But she chose to focus on learning to recognize the promptings of the Spirit and on what the Lord thought instead of what her peers thought. “This was what I would need to stand strong and upright with the choice I had made,” she says.
...

After their marriage, Ane and Benjamin moved to a new town where they both began their university studies. Soon they welcomed their daughter, Olea, and Ane temporarily put her studies on hold. Ane will continue her education part-time and online, allowing her both to get an education and to stay at home to nurture their daughter. Although she knows that such an arrangement will be hard work, Ane will still be able to get the education she desires.

Not totally clear, but it appears that Ane is either in High School or has just graduated at the beginning of the story.

[Solon]

Nice find from the 1955 Ensign.

The subtext here is what I find most revealing. Of course, when you meet "the one" you should get married, and parents/friends are often going to think you're too young. That's not limited to religion. Particular circumstances aside, the status of being married shouldn't inhibit someone already attending university from continuing to do so.

The subtext here is that Ane & Benny didn't wait to have kids. As someone who has faced challenges to having children of my own, I'm not one to cast stones at that decision, but that's the complicating factor to Ane finishing her studies.

BTW,

The single most significant predictor of children’s literacy is their mother’s literacy level(Educational Testing Service, 1995). The more education a mother has, the more likely she is to read to her child. Studies show that 77 percent of children whose mothers have a college education were read to every day, while only 49 percent of children whose mothers had a high school education were read to daily (National Household Education Survey, 1996).
[. . .]
While the overall economic status of the family has a great impact on whether families read to children, the employment status of the mother does not. The 1996 National Household Education Survey found little difference between mothers who work more than 35 hours a week and those who work less than that or are not employed. In families with mothers who worked full time, 54 percent of children were read to daily. When the mother worked part time, or was not employed, 59 percent of the children were read to daily.
http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/startearly/ch_1.html

I'm sure there's a correlation/causality question to tackle, but - generally speaking - if you want your kids to do well in school, make Mom finish college.

EDIT: What do we know about the author, Alissa Strong? Is she an LDS leader of some type? An Ensign beat-reporter?

[Scratch]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/03/t...marry?lang=eng



Not totally clear, but it appears that Ane is either in High School or has just graduated at the beginning of the story.

She's certainly not in high school at the beginning of the story, since it says she's in institute, which is a college thing. Seminary is high school.

[Scratch]

Nice find from the 1955 Ensign.

The subtext here is what I find most revealing. Of course, when you meet "the one" you should get married, and parents/friends are often going to think you're too young. That's not limited to religion. Particular circumstances aside, the status of being married shouldn't inhibit someone already attending university from continuing to do so.

The subtext here is that Ane & Benny didn't wait to have kids. As someone who has faced challenges to having children of my own, I'm not one to cast stones at that decision, but that's the complicating factor to Ane finishing her studies.

BTW,

I'm sure there's a correlation/causality question to tackle, but - generally speaking - if you want your kids to do well in school, make Mom finish college.

EDIT: What do we know about the author, Alissa Strong? Is she an LDS leader of some type? An Ensign beat-reporter?

I think the correlation/causation issue you point out would be interesting. Is there something about finishing college that would make it more likely that a particular person would read with her kids?

I also agree that the subtext and commentary is very interesting. There obviously has to be some balance between getting married and having kids on one hand and providing for them (including the education required to provide for them) on the other hand. Furthermore, "providing for them" covers a lot more than just meeting physical needs. I think that the socialization, achievement, and other development that goes along with higher education make an individual more likely to succeed as a parent. I also think the LDS church has recognized it and emphasizes balancing. I think it's also pretty safe to say that many in the LDS church, including many leaders, will perform this balancing differently than much of society, but that doesn't mean that there is some universal LDS principle that education and career considerations should always take a back seat to multiplying and replenishing.

[UtahDan]

She's certainly not in high school at the beginning of the story, since it says she's in institute, which is a college thing. Seminary is high school.

I guess it's confusing because it talks about her being in high school, then talks about beginning her university studies only after she is married. She can't have out of school very long, which to me is one of the problems here. At 18 your brain hasn't fully developed yet.

[SeattleUte]

I think the correlation/causation issue you point out would be interesting. Is there something about finishing college that would make it more likely that a particular person would read with her kids?

No question, in my opinion. I believe -- and have seen -- there's fundamental change that occurs as a result of a college education, like a mutation. It's not the only way the mutation occurs, but it's the surest.

There are numerous other reasons that women should wait wait wait to marry, and I need not go into them here. One of them is also a strong argument against the death penalty: We are learning that men's brains don't even mature until age 25.

[Scratch]

I guess it's confusing because it talks about her being in high school, then talks about beginning her university studies only after she is married. She can't have out of school very long, which to me is one of the problems here. At 18 your brain hasn't fully developed yet.

Yeah, it's clear from the further context that she met him while she was in college. In any event, I agree that I would discourage anyone I know from getting married at 18. To that extent I would disagree with the "right person+right place = right time" concept as being universally true. There has to be some threshold there.

[UtahDan]

I think the correlation/causation issue you point out would be interesting. Is there something about finishing college that would make it more likely that a particular person would read with her kids?

I also agree that the subtext and commentary is very interesting. There obviously has to be some balance between getting married and having kids on one hand and providing for them (including the education required to provide for them) on the other hand. Furthermore, "providing for them" covers a lot more than just meeting physical needs. I think that the socialization, achievement, and other development that goes along with higher education make an individual more likely to succeed as a parent. I also think the LDS church has recognized it and emphasizes balancing. I think it's also pretty safe to say that many in the LDS church, including many leaders, will perform this balancing differently than much of society, but that doesn't mean that there is some universal LDS principle that education and career considerations should always take a back seat to multiplying and replenishing.

There may not be in fact among the membership, but the article is clear that marriage should not be delayed for education. Also, in these quotes, it appears to me that family=children, given that marriage is also in the list:

Although Ane and Benjamin believed in the gospel’s emphasis on family and marriage, others not of their faith did not generally share this priority—at least not for young adults. “People in my town are strongly focused on education and work,” Ane explains. “This is good, but it does not leave much room for family—or religion.”

...
Both Benjamin and Ane were concerned about the advice and opinions given by their friends. For a whole year they struggled to decide on the right time to get married. They knew that ultimately the most important guidance would come from the Lord, so they spent much time searching the scriptures and words of the prophets for talks about family, marriage, and education.
...
A career without family, where family is possible, is a tragedy.

[tooblue]

No question, in my opinion. I believe -- and have seen -- there's fundamental change that occurs as a result of a college education, like a mutation. It's not the only way the mutation occurs, but it's the surest.

There are numerous other reasons that women should wait wait wait to marry, and I need not go into them here. One of them is also a strong argument against the death penalty: We are learning that men's brains don't even mature until age 25.

The pre-frontal cortex of all human brains may not mature until age 25:

http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/te...rontal_cortex/

Said research is still ongoing. The human brain may not be fully mature until the 30's and 40's:

http://phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-f...e-30s-40s.html

So, the question of when—in terms of age—someone should get married and begin to procreate is a complex one.

[Scratch]

There may not be in fact among the membership, but the article is clear that marriage should not be delayed for education. Also, in these quotes, it appears to me that family=children, given that marriage is also in the list:

It may be true that the stance is that marriage should not be delayed for education, but I believe it is a bit more complex than that. There are a lot of variables that go into whether or not marriage is appropriate at a given point. There is also nothing about marriage (sans kids) that makes obtaining an education significantly more difficult.

Also, are you saying that you're interpreting the article to mean that children should not be delayed for education? Because if you are, I believe you are reading it wrong and conflating portions that deal with having kids into portions that deal with marriage. I think the LDS Church has been fairly clear, especially lately, that having kids is not something that should be done at the earliest possible opportunity. Rather, a couple should decide when they are ready to support the kids emotionally and financially. That said, I think it's safe to say that, both officially and unofficially, the LDS Church would do the math for such a weighing a bit differently than society at large.

[UtahDan]

It may be true that the stance is that marriage should not be delayed for education, but I believe it is a bit more complex than that. There are a lot of variables that go into whether or not marriage is appropriate at a given point. There is also nothing about marriage (sans kids) that makes obtaining an education significantly more difficult.

Also, are you saying that you're interpreting the article to mean that children should not be delayed for education? Because if you are, I believe you are reading it wrong and conflating portions that deal with having kids into portions that deal with marriage. I think the LDS Church has been fairly clear, especially lately, that having kids is not something that should be done at the earliest possible opportunity. Rather, a couple should decide when they are ready to support the kids emotionally and financially. That said, I think it's safe to say that, both officially and unofficially, the LDS Church would do the math for such a weighing a bit differently than society at large.

I need to find the article. There was one not long ago that said almost exactly what you are saying, and then only gave examples of the blessings of not waiting.

[macktruck32]

Yeah, it's clear from the further context that she met him while she was in college. In any event, I agree that I would discourage anyone I know from getting married at 18. To that extent I would disagree with the "right person+right place = right time" concept as being universally true. There has to be some threshold there.

Anecdotally, I married one month shy of my 22nd birthday due in no small part to my LDS upbringing. Mistake.

[UtahDan]

I need to find the article. There was one not long ago that said almost exactly what you are saying, and then only gave examples of the blessings of not waiting.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ldren?lang=eng

That's the one I'm thinking of, only scanning it over it's not as balanced as I had remembered. I think the thesis is pretty clear. We are all free to disagree of course, but I think the push back against the societal trend to get married later, have kids later, get educated and have a career first is fairly clear.

[Solon]

There may not be in fact among the membership, but the article is clear that marriage should not be delayed for education.:

I would be interested to hear from female Ub5ers, but I think there is a good deal of conflict that young LDS women (and, perhaps to a certain extent non-LDS women too) experience while in college. On the one hand, they're told to be ready for marriage, since it's the most important thing. On the other hand, they're also told to be serious about their educations and to work hard and do well. It must be difficult for a woman to be serious about pursuing studies and maybe even the career that those studies lead to, while at the same time being ready to chuck it all to the wind if Johnny gets into medical school in a far-off state.

As a component of this conflict, the subtle message I see over and over again is that men's educations are more important than women's. While I gladly concede that logistics of marriage and childbirth often make it more advantageous to have the man stay in school while the woman alters or interrupts her studies (e.g., the older man is further along in his studies and closer to graduation; the logistics of pregnancy and infant-care), I often sense an understated yet important implication that the man's studies are more important to the family's than the woman's studies. Certainly, this might be a straight-up financial choice to focus resources on finding the highest-paying job, but there are more subtle ways I see women having to compromise where their spouses don't. I certainly feel that the Ensign article reinforced this prejudice: after all, without knowing the particulars of their situation, what's to keep a husband like the article's Benjamin from scaling back his courseload for a semester or two in order to do his share of childcare and allow Ane to take an extra class or two?

Also, one additional possible factor is that some women (and men) don't really want to be in college in the first place. The promise of a financially stable future through marriage is a reason I have heard from students who have mentally checked-out, even if they're still enrolling in classes.

Current statistics in the US show that the majority of college students are women, and that this majority is growing. There are big changes coming to the American education, employment, and homemaking landscapes.

[SeattleUte]

The pre-frontal cortex of all human brains may not mature until age 25:

http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/te...rontal_cortex/

Said research is still ongoing. The human brain may not be fully mature until the 30's and 40's:

http://phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-f...e-30s-40s.html

So, the question of when—in terms of age—someone should get married and begin to procreate is a complex one.

30's

[tooblue]

To me, the "ideal" would be between 24 - 30 years of age. Now, My wife and I were both 23 when we were married. We did not wait to have children. Our first son arrived when we were nearly 25 years of age. We were not too young to get married. I am also very grateful we didn't wait to have children. I did not have the same energy and enthusiasm when boy number five arrived in our late 30's. And we certainly were/are not any better parents than we were when we were in our mid to late twenties.

[Mrs. Funk]

Interestingly, I'm watching Mona Lisa Smile while reading this thread. With my sick toddler draped on my lap, my paid work is going by the wayside this week. I see the main protagonist portrayed by Julia Roberts butting her feminist sensibilities against the societal expectations of marriage and family, the younger the better.

In many ways, the attitudes espoused by this article mirror those 1950 sentiments. On the other hand, I'm a female law grad with a degree primarily on the back burner while I do sporadic contract work from home and care for our insane toddler. I married at 21, something I never thought would happen. My own life's path has been contradictory in its own way.

Anyway, I'm rambling with very little substantive thought. I think pressure to marry young is damaging for many reasons in addition to endangering a woman's education.

[Scratch]

30's

Personally, I would rather have the financial and emotional difficulties of having kids in my 25-35 range than the decreased energy and increased likelihood of birth defects that come with having kids any later than that. We started having kids when I was 28 and my wife was 26, and I would not want to start much later than that. By that point, most people will be in a position where they should be able to financially support a family adequately. Of course, that's just me and others will obviously have their own personal opinions.

[Virginia Ute]

30's

I disagree...a woman who is pregnant at 35 is already medically considered to be "advanced maternal age" because she has an increased risk for pregnancy problems and fetal anomalies. If one desires to have more than 2 children, then waiting until 30 isn't the best idea. Medically speaking, women in their 20s are best-suited to have children.

[Rocker Ute]

Personally, I would rather have the financial and emotional difficulties of having kids in my 25-35 range than the decreased energy and increased likelihood of birth defects that come with having kids any later than that. We started having kids when I was 28 and my wife was 26, and I would not want to start much later than that. By that point, most people will be in a position where they should be able to financially support a family adequately. Of course, that's just me and others will obviously have their own personal opinions.

I had a similar situation as Scratch and I agree. With 3 years between each kid, and maxing out at 3, my wife and I have both noticed that our energy levels to devote to the youngest are less than they were for 1 or 2. I should note that kids 1 and 2 are extremely easy kids by any measure - they take after their father. My sister-in-law is pregnant at 37 and she is considered a risky pregnancy simply because of her age.

Also, my wife and I both are college graduates with advanced degrees, if we weren't married at the time it probably would have taken me an extra two years to complete mine (going off of one income).

I think that anyone who has been married or had kids knows that really if you waited until the optimal time, that time would never come. I got married at 24, my wife was almost 25, and looking back that seems terribly young. I'll probably feel that way about my 34yo self too.

Pushing through hard things and learning to scrimp and save while we were young brought my wife and I together, and hopefully will prepare us for the inevitable challenges to come. However, for us education has always been a high priority, but one that we saw that we could pursue parallel to other life events, including marriage and kids.

[SeattleUte]

Here in Seattle the rule is no more than 2 kids. I have 5 and have never met anyone here with that many. Fortunately, I've had two mothers to help me raise them. My kids were born when I was 31, 35, 41, 45 and 47. It's all been good, but I've been a much better, more devoted and attentive (albeit still flawed) father than with the first two. Part of this is due to maturity, also to my wife's expectations and practical necessity. She is a full time professional and we very much team parent. Fortunately, the first two are doing really well despite that I had not reached my peak as a father. I give lot of credit to a great "village".

Here's the hardest thing. Last year when she was six, my youngest asked, "Daddy how old will you be when I'm you're age?" I did the math in my head and said, "100." Her eyes went wide (she knows of course that my parents are both alive and healthy). She said, "Daddy, you can live that long. I know you can. I'll help you."

[UtahDan]

I had a similar situation as Scratch and I agree. With 3 years between each kid, and maxing out at 3, my wife and I have both noticed that our energy levels to devote to the youngest are less than they were for 1 or 2. I should note that kids 1 and 2 are extremely easy kids by any measure - they take after their father. My sister-in-law is pregnant at 37 and she is considered a risky pregnancy simply because of her age.

Also, my wife and I both are college graduates with advanced degrees, if we weren't married at the time it probably would have taken me an extra two years to complete mine (going off of one income).

I think that anyone who has been married or had kids knows that really if you waited until the optimal time, that time would never come. I got married at 24, my wife was almost 25, and looking back that seems terribly young. I'll probably feel that way about my 34yo self too.

Pushing through hard things and learning to scrimp and save while we were young brought my wife and I together, and hopefully will prepare us for the inevitable challenges to come. However, for us education has always been a high priority, but one that we saw that we could pursue parallel to other life events, including marriage and kids.

While I agree, I think that kind of responds to a straw man. There has to be a middle ground between making marriage and children the first priority for men after a mission and for women after high school, and waiting around so long and being so picky about optimal circumstances that the time of life for that passes you by. My perception is that most women who drop out of college to become stay at home moms are in most cases no more than 2 years away from getting a degree. Most folks who start having kids before ever getting their first pay check and aren't much further removed from actually getting one. Those seem like realistic goals worth achieving. None of this is to say that there is a one size fits all and that what I'm talking about there is never a good idea. Exactly the opposite. One size does not fit all and there are legitimate reasons to wait for marriage and children for some, just as there are legitimate reasons not to wait for others. I think encouraging women, particularly, to see only one acceptable option for themselves in life and to make that decision while they are still kids is unwise.

[UtahDan]

Here's the hardest thing. Last year when she was six, my youngest asked, "Daddy how old will you be when I'm you're age?" I did the math in my head and said, "100." Her eyes went wide (she knows of course that my parents are both alive and healthy). She said, "Daddy, you can live that long. I know you can. I'll help you."

Oh man, that just kills me. I have a 6 year old girl too. What a sweet precious little one you have.

[Scratch]

There has to be a middle ground between making marriage and children the first priority for men after a mission and for women after high school, and waiting around so long and being so picky about optimal circumstances that the time of life for that passes you by.

You just summarized what I understand to be the LDS church's position on this.

[LA Ute]

Here's the hardest thing. Last year when she was six, my youngest asked, "Daddy how old will you be when I'm you're age?" I did the math in my head and said, "100." Her eyes went wide (she knows of course that my parents are both alive and healthy). She said, "Daddy, you can live that long. I know you can. I'll help you."

So sweet. A great incentive to stay in shape, take care of yourself, and eat lots of soluble fiber.

[DrumNFeather]

While I agree, I think that kind of responds to a straw man. There has to be a middle ground between making marriage and children the first priority for men after a mission and for women after high school, and waiting around so long and being so picky about optimal circumstances that the time of life for that passes you by. My perception is that most women who drop out of college to become stay at home moms are in most cases no more than 2 years away from getting a degree. Most folks who start having kids before ever getting their first pay check and aren't much further removed from actually getting one. Those seem like realistic goals worth achieving. None of this is to say that there is a one size fits all and that what I'm talking about there is never a good idea. Exactly the opposite. One size does not fit all and there are legitimate reasons to wait for marriage and children for some, just as there are legitimate reasons not to wait for others. I think encouraging women, particularly, to see only one acceptable option for themselves in life and to make that decision while they are still kids is unwise.

The whole thing is a bit of a straw man, including your final statement here.

[macktruck32]

You just summarized what I understand to be the LDS church's position on this.

I think the problem is that the LDS societal/cultural position in certain areas *cough* Utah/Davis County, part of SE Idaho *cough* doesn't line up with that position.

[IdahoUteTroutHead]

You mean....SE Idaho *yack* may be a bit behind? *heave*

[macktruck32]

Oh, and what are you a DOCTOR or something???

[SeattleUte]

It's impossible to truy discuss this without women. For me Mrs. Funk's comments resonate most. We need to recruit more women here!