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Thread: Approaches to Pornography

  1. #31
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    I found this thread title very misleading.

    1/10 -would not recommend

  2. #32
    If you lean left and are in favor of social justice, should you not feel at least a little bit uncomfortable with at least some aspects of the porn industry?

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...es-pornography
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  3. #33
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    If you lean left and are in favor of social justice, should you not feel at least a little bit uncomfortable with at least some aspects of the porn industry?

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...es-pornography
    I have no love for the porn industry, but it is a complicated issue.

    Some third-wave feminists have argued that voluntarily engaging in sex work allows women to "reclaim" their sexuality "from the male gaze." (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchang...-pornography-0)

    Obviously, no reasonable person is in favor of exploitation or sex-slavery, and this is where the waters can get muddy. How much participation in the porn industry is truly "voluntary"? And "sex work" can include a huge spectrum of possibilities - everything from webcam peep-show stripping to outright slavery.

    The other problem - as Mormon Red Death has reminded me - is that defending pornography gives "doth protest too much" impression.
    Personally, I'm not necessarily pro-porn; I am pro-feminism & pro-free-speech.

    As stated in that 2007 write-up I linked,
    I certainly wouldn’t go out of my way to promote pornography as a positive thing for feminists, but I also wouldn’t say that it is so harmful as to require its immediate eradication. There seems to be a whole host of other issues far greater in importance than pornography (at least in terms of the old debate which focused primarily on the pornographic film industry).


    The connection in USS Utah's linked article between pornography and violence raises a concern, to be sure, - and I don't want to downplay that possible connection. I would suspect, though, that the causality is probably a tricky thing to pin down.

    Not casting stones here, but is there a more recent development or impetus behind posting this article which dates from 2010? Just curious.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  4. #34
    Just as a curiosity aside, the only real opposition to Sean Reyes in Utah's AG race now is Andrew McCullough, Libertarian. (The democratic candidate dropped out the day of the first debate due to "health" issues and Utah law doesn't allow the Dems to replace him)

    Andrew has made his living defending escorts, prostitutes, Dr John's etc etc. He's said very crude things in court to people on the stand. He's a very interesting person, who certainly would defend the porn industry. That would make an interesting AG's office.


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  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Just as a curiosity aside, the only real opposition to Sean Reyes in Utah's AG race now is Andrew McCullough, Libertarian. (The democratic candidate dropped out the day of the first debate due to "health" issues and Utah law doesn't allow the Dems to replace him)

    Andrew has made his living defending escorts, prostitutes, Dr John's etc etc. He's said very crude things in court to people on the stand. He's a very interesting person, who certainly would defend the porn industry. That would make an interesting AG's office.


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    Also strip club dancers and related performers on first amendment grounds

  6. #36
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Well, don't worry-- in California we're cleaning up the porn industry.

    Most Californians support initiative to require adult-film actors to use condoms

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.latim...?client=safari


    https://ballotpedia.org/California_P...c_Films_(2016)


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Well, don't worry-- in California we're cleaning up the porn industry.

    Most Californians support initiative to require adult-film actors to use condoms

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.latim...?client=safari


    https://ballotpedia.org/California_P...c_Films_(2016)


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    Thanks California!

    This discussion reminds me of a funny quote from Futurama (a wholly unappreciated show): "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored with sex. Is there a place on the web that panders to my lust for violence?"

  8. #38
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Is it really that complicated? I hear variations on three arguments supporting the porn industry:

    1) It doesn't hurt anyone. This is ridiculous enough to ignore.

    2) People should be able to do what they want. Agree, but that's a discussion on laws and regulations once we have established the fact that the industry is harmful.

    3) Finally, there's the academic, feminist argument. It's fine as far as academic, theoretical musings go, but it's completely disconnected from reality. The porn industry exists/thrives because it enslaves. Men and women. There is not one poster here or anywhere who would encourage his wife or daughter to enter the porn industry as a way to reclaim their sexuality from the patriarchy.
    I think the complication emerges in the oodles of ways that "porn" can be produced. A kid goofing around with a webcam for bitcoin is really different from a sex worker in Thailand.
    The porn industry thrives because there is a market for it. The contention that it enslaves is only right some of the time. Unfortunately, it's really hard to make it right none of the time.

    As for the "encouraging" wife or daughter, you're right - but nor do I want my daughter to get an abortion, smoke, or attend the byu.

    I really do feel that the issue is very complicated, but I'm getting close to "doth protest too much" territory.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I think the complication emerges in the oodles of ways that "porn" can be produced. A kid goofing around with a webcam for bitcoin is really different from a sex worker in Thailand.
    The porn industry thrives because there is a market for it. The contention that it enslaves is only right some of the time. Unfortunately, it's really hard to make it right none of the time.

    As for the "encouraging" wife or daughter, you're right - but nor do I want my daughter to get an abortion, smoke, or attend the byu.

    I really do feel that the issue is very complicated, but I'm getting close to "doth protest too much" territory.
    I thought I read an article in the New Yorker recently that the porn "industry" is dying, because there is so much free, amateur, voluntary stuff online, that few people pay for it and there is no money in it. FWIW.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Some of the time is enough. This is true of gambling and alcohol as well, which is why I also don't support those industries. I know very many people can touch very many things and be just fine. But it absolutely wrecks some lives. That's enough for me to be opposed.

    But really, I was trying to say that I don't buy the academic argument about empowerment or freedom or whatever that argument is about.
    So, how do you support religion?


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  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    With about 10% of my income.
    It was a serious question. Lots of people thrive on religion. Others murder, rape etc because of it. How is that different than your other stances?


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  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    So, how do you support religion?


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    Nobody has every been flushed out of the bottom of religion and ended up selling real estate.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    It was a serious question. Lots of people thrive on religion. Others murder, rape etc because of it. How is that different than your other stances?


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    That's true of everything. So I guess the real question is the 'net good' of porn (or religion) greater than the 'net bad'.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Some of the time is enough. This is true of gambling and alcohol as well, which is why I also don't support those industries. I know very many people can touch very many things and be just fine. But it absolutely wrecks some lives. That's enough for me to be opposed.

    But really, I was trying to say that I don't buy the academic argument about empowerment or freedom or whatever that argument is about.
    Bite your Tongue!
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    That's true of everything. So I guess the real question is the 'net good' of porn (or religion) greater than the 'net bad'.
    Which is my point. When you start making the sweeping "I won't support this because it may harm someone" stuff where do you stop?

    And the "net good" often depends on the person doing the judging.


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  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    That's true of everything. So I guess the real question is the 'net good' of porn (or religion) greater than the 'net bad'.
    No, just MLM's and Ponzi schemes

    Edit: wrong quote- meant to reply to the real estate comment.
    I saw a door that said exit only. So I entered through it and went up to the guy working there and said "I have good news. You have severely underestimated that door over there. By like a hundred percent." Demetri Marti

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    Not casting stones here, but is there a more recent development or impetus behind posting this article which dates from 2010? Just curious.
    I saw it on Facebook yesterday and didn't take note of publication date.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  18. #48
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    new research suggests the LDS Church and its leaders needs to tone down their rhetoric about pornography

    "This adds support to the idea that religious individuals either have a higher propensity for developing a pornography compulsion," the report states, "or simply misattribute their pornography use to be an addiction, due to the guilt and shame accompanying sexual expression."
    http://www.sltrib.com/home/5239843-1...erate-negative

  19. #49
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    new research suggests the LDS Church and its leaders needs to tone down their rhetoric about pornography



    http://www.sltrib.com/home/5239843-1...erate-negative
    Hmmm. Thus was buried at the end of the article:

    But Willoughby said it's a step too far to say his research suggests attitudes surrounding pornography are more harmful than pornography consumption.

    He testified in 2016 in favor of a Utah law labeling pornography as a "public health crisis," and said that there are nuances to pornography consumption lost in the current social and religious dialogue surrounding sexual expression and sexual health.

    "What I hope a bill like that does is get this issue out for public dialogue and discussion," Willoughby said. "It's not something as simple as banning all pornography or allowing all pornography. There's a lot of things in the middle that we need to understand."

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #50
    A neurosurgeon talks about the effects of pornography on the brain:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ADYe5w75yk
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    A neurosurgeon talks about the effects of pornography on the brain:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ADYe5w75yk
    Aw, crap, I just noted the date of the video -- also from 2010.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

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