A while ago, someone shared a point similar to SU's, and I shared this map, of the final position of the Allied armies at the end of the war in Europe. I think it is a good visual demonstration of just how huge the Soviet investment was in the war.
A while ago, someone shared a point similar to SU's, and I shared this map, of the final position of the Allied armies at the end of the war in Europe. I think it is a good visual demonstration of just how huge the Soviet investment was in the war.
Comparing World War II with Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan is an apples and oranges comparison. World War II was a massive conventional total war, whereas Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were limited asymmetric conflicts. Ironically, in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, there have been some who wanted to fight conventionally, to rely on firepower without worrying about civilian casualties. But in a counterinsurgency campaign the civilian population is the prize, the center of gravity, and indiscriminate killing is counterproductive.Originally Posted by SeattleUte
The American way of war, on the conventional battlefield, at least, is to send a bullet instead of a man; it is to find and fix the enemy before calling in artillery and air strikes. This is how the U.S. Army operated in Europe and in the Pacific, and in the latter theater it often led to complaints by Marines that the Army was moving too slowly and deliberately -- and led to controversy when Marine General Holland Smith fired Army General Ralph Smith at Saipan.
Americans sent to Europe had to learn to hate the Germans as well as how to fight them, but they were generally quick learners. Consider the Battle of Kasserine Pass and its aftermath, despite early defeats, elements of the US II Corps, reinforced by British reserves, rallied and held the exits through mountain passes in western Tunisia, defeating the Axis offensive plans. In the aftermath, the U.S. Army instituted sweeping changes from unit-level organization to the replacing of commanders. When the same combatants next met, in some cases only weeks later, the U.S. forces were considerably more effective.
Americans sent to fight in the Pacific didn't need to learn to hate the Japanese because of Pearl Harbor, but they did have to learn to fight with the same ruthlessness as the Japanese. Early on in the Guadalcanal campaign the Marines developed a "take no prisoners" mentality due to the ambush and massacre of the Goettge patrol which had gone to a supposed rendezvous with Japanese soldiers wanting to surrender.
The chances for the South of winning the ACW were about the same as the chances for Japan winning the Pacific War.
Winik's book talks a bit about the discussion that went on among Southern leaders on the subject of persevering. I think they could have prolonged the killing and perhaps have wrung some concessions out of the US, but they were never going to win, if by "win" you mean being allowed to secede. After Sherman's march and Lincoln's subsequent reelection, the peace forces in the US lacked the power to force a settlement. If Sherman had failed and Lincoln had not been reelected (which was a real possibility in that scenario), history could have been radically different.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Yes, as long as the North was resolved to win it was destined eventually to win. Indeed, slavery was not an institution that was destined to last, it even ended in South Africa not that long after the Civil War.
But what it would have taken for the South to win was a loss of political will in the North to keep fighting, as occurred here with respect to the Vietnam war. It almost happened when Lincoln ran for reelection against McClellan whose platform was ending the war. Savage guerilla warefare and scorched earth tactics and indefinite prolongation of the war might have done it. That is James McPherson's view. We revere Lincol precisely because that war could have been lost without his leadership. Certainly it's not because of his groundbreaking views on ending slavery.
But of course my whole point is that it's not in our DNA to have fought that kind of war anywhere in America.
Last edited by SeattleUte; 03-05-2013 at 11:02 AM.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I desperately want to reply to this email, but realize that if I do it will be a bottomless pit; I will be like the guy in the Florida sinkhole; there is never any end to a debate with Seattle Ute so I MUST RESIST now and forever.
Well, you're just wrong that free democratically represented people are more eager to fight in wars, whether defensive or offensive. As Happy notes, Max Hastings agrees with me.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I didn't say they were more eager; I said they fight harder. There are many examples, in WWII, WWI the Civil War, the Napoleonic Wars, and the Roman wars against the barbarians for hundreds of years. Resist, resist, resist.
Last edited by concerned; 03-05-2013 at 11:20 AM.
Your last paragraph nails it. That's why the South gave up. It is not in the American psyche to fight endless war of attrition.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
What more free and enlightened societies ultimately invariably will have is more wealth and technology. Demonstrably, they don't "fight harder". Nobody has ever fought as hard as they fought in the WWII Eastern front, a ghastly war of attrition between two totalitarian empires led by the most blood thirsty, oppressive, autocratic and ambitious rulers who ever lived. We will never see conventional war like that again. The amazing scale of those battles didn't occur because both sides loved their freedom and had so much to lose.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
While I don't necessarily disagree, I think we're underestimating the North's industrial capacity vs. the agrarian nature of the Southern States. The South realized that it could not compete in a Total War.
The idea that democratically motivated soldiers fight harder than those coerced by totalitarian states is as old as Herodotus in the written record (free Greeks vs. conscripted Persians). To what extent it has legs is debatable. After all, everyone fights like hell when his own life is on the line.
That's a cool map. I'm glad the U.S. generals didn't convince Truman to invade Russia. That was a prevalent canard in my community when I was a kid. If we'd just kept going into Russia there would have been no cold war.A while ago, someone shared a point similar to SU's, and I shared this map, of the final position of the Allied armies at the end of the war in Europe. I think it is a good visual demonstration of just how huge the Soviet investment was in the war.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
George C. Scott says as much in the movie Patton. That idea has lasted a long time.
I agree, and I think that was why the South decided to choose the better part of valor.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I don't think the South ever intended (or believed it was possible) to conquer the North. They simply wanted to inflict enough damage on the North such that the North would back off, recognize the secession, and leave the CSA alone as a new nation. They very nearly pulled it off. You are right on about Lincoln's reelection, and throughout the entire war there were forces in the North that wanted the war to end immediately, even if it meant that it ended in a draw and a permanent dissolution of the Union. The victories at Vicksburg and Gettysburg were absolutely critical in swaying public support for keeping the war going.
“The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
― Carl Sagan
Well said.
Of course they didn't intend to conquer the North. Winning would have meant a new nation made up of southern states. This was very much a possibility for years, which is why we revere Lincoln.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
http://bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900With Bomb Sight you can discover what it was like in London, during WW2 Luftwaffe Blitz bombing raids, exploring maps, images and memories. The Bomb Sight web map and mobile app reveals WW2 bomb census maps between 7/10/1940 and 06/06/1941, previously available only by viewing them in the Reading Room of The National Archives.
Yep. Some Southern strategists (including Lee) saw themselves as following in George Washington's footsteps --not defeating the enemy outright, just wearing him out. GW essentially followed that strategy against the British, who could have kept fighting indefinitely but gave up. The North didn't give up, although the Democratic Party of that time thought it should, and evidently a large minority of voters agreed.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The last survivior of the Operation Valkerie (The assassination plot to kill Hitler) passed away
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.1287310
I didn't realize that there were any surviviors
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