Allegations Chris Hill Ignored Swim Team Abuses...

[Katy Lied]

First of all, Greg Winslow was and is a dick (my opinion only not necessarily his swimmers), and his methods were questionable and not particularly successful. His biggest problem (besides him not being an effective coach) is inconsistency in the treatment of his athletes.

I know for a fact that Karson Applin and Matthew Fiascone were kicked off the team (I believe for drinking and for other offenses) sometime during the 2012 season. Since then, Fiascone has been going around and stirring up trouble, finding students who transferred or quit, and collecting their stories and releasing them to the media. This article is the culmination of his efforts.

That said, Winslow was inconsistent. He kicks Applin and Fiascone out for drinking, yet provides beer for other students, and attended events where his swimmers were imbibing. So what's the real reason that Applin and Fiascone were dropped? Because they questioned his methods and didn't suck up to him the way the other swimmers did.

So Winslow was released because of the sex with underage swimmers charge, but I think that was only 10-20% of the problem. I think the other 90% was his dictatorial style and his autocratic policies designed to, according to him, build team spirit, but according to me to build blind unquestioning loyalty to him and he alone.

Some of the weird crap I saw (weird in my opinion; the swimmers didn't seem to think much of it.) He would tell his swimmers (female only) when they could shave (their legs, their pitts, everything.) During peak training week he would call practice at any time of the day, from 5am to midnight. He wouldn't give advance notice, he'd just text the team and everyone had to be in the water within 10 minutes no matter what they were doing. He'd make the women run the campus in just their swimsuits and shoes during the day, when school was in session. WTF? Do you know how painful it is to run without a bra, and I'm not even talking about the psychological trauma of running around in front of students dressed in nothing but a thin layer of lycra. He inculcated a hatred of BYU in his students, so much so that no one on the team owned anything blue other than jeans. Why the hate? The football players don't even hate each other.

I believe that Chris Hill knew nothing about this. As others have said, he was protected by his people, and nobody cares what a swimmer has to say. When it finally broke, he did interview 50 people, and supposedly no one corroborated the story of the disgruntled athletes. However, this result was discovered when all the swimmers got together and discussed what they told Hill. If I were a swimmer and I did agree with the charges, I sure wouldn't have claimed it.

I think Hill's people did him no favors by hiding the extent of the charges, and claiming that it was a few disgruntled swimmers. In the midst of his Pac12 orgasm, he wouldn't have had any time to really investigate the extent of these charges, and his people led him into believing there was nothing there. I believe that had Hill known the extent of what was going on, he would have absolutely stepped up earlier. He is now going to find out that the Pac12 doesn't allow for ignorance the way the MWC probably would have. I don't believe that Hill should be fired, but the Pac12 comes with a completely new set of politically correct expectations, and swimming is a Pac12 marquee sport.

[UTEopia]

SoCalPat: While I respect your opinion and your right to say it, in my opinion you are the juror who has decided the case at the end of the prosecutions opening statement before hearing the defense opening statement and any of the evidence.

Do I believe what was reported? Yes, at a certain level. As you say, they would appear to have no motivation to lie. Does the hurt, anger, frustration, etc. give them a motive to embellish? I don't know them and I don't know, but it is a question I will allow to linger until I here from other witnesses. Regardless, I do not believe that the handful of experiences reported by 4 or 5 swimmers and their parents tell the complete story. It may tell their version (embellished or not) of the story, but not the complete story. Whether that complete story validates every allegation made or puts them at another level or in a different light and context is not known by me and I am not ready to pass judgment and impose the punishment until they are. I will say that if the health and welfare of the swimmers was put at unnecessary risk, which seems to be at the heart of the allegations, and this was ignored, then it seems clear to me that the most severe of penalties, including termination, should occur.

Unlike LA, Hill is not a personal friend and although I have had contact with him over the years, I believe I have more often then not been highly critical of certain aspects of his administration. I am not worried about him on any level and it will not matter to me one bit whether he continues in his position or not. You may be right that Chris Hill is done at Utah and in my opinion that would be the easiest thing for the U to do at this time. But I don't believe that Hill or anyone else for that matter deserves to be tried and sentenced in that way.

The Yahoo article seemed to poo poo the investigation done of Winslow by the internal office that investigates allegations of sexual harassment, discrimination, etc and to imply that they were not qualified to conduct an investigation, did an incomplete investigation or had their investigation unfairly influenced by others at the U. I have had some direct involvement with investigations conducted by that office and have found that in general, the investigators know what they are doing and have the autonomy to investigate at the highest levels of the University without fear of stepping on feet. Whether that occurred here or not I cannot say. If the investigation was poorly performed, incomplete or influenced that is something that should be a part of the next investigation and I believe that it will be.

My hope is that the University or some other credible outside entity does a thorough investigation of the allegations in a timely manner and that the University then takes swift and appropriate action when the investigation is complete. Given the publicity that this will draw, it certainly appears to me that the investigation part will occur and I have no reason to believe that there will not be action taken. It is almost certain that regardless of what action is taken there will be about 50% who will believe it is about right and 25% who believe that it is either too light or too strong. Those in the middle will melt into the background and the others will call each other names to try to validate their opinions.

[LA Ute]

As I've said elsewhere, if the sexual assault was known before the hire (and I'm not saying it was), that's a problem. If it was discovered after the hire and nothing was done, that's also a problem. The fact that it occurred prior to his tenure at Utah is a red herring. Yes, let's continue to put a bad person in a position to do bad but less illegal things, shall we?

I agree with you. This is the part of this story that troubles me most. I think the most important issues in this matter so far are (1) the timing of what was known, by whom, and when, about the sexual abuse; and (2) whether it continued after the girl and the coach came to Utah. The facts about both are still murky. Let's get them out in the open.

[SoCalPat]

SoCalPat: While I respect your opinion and your right to say it, in my opinion you are the juror who has decided the case at the end of the prosecutions opening statement before hearing the defense opening statement and any of the evidence.

The defense declined to make an "opening statement" when approached by Yahoo (EDIT: I have since seen the response by the U. that appears to be forceful and emphatic). If I'm in the jurors' box and that happens at trial, I'm going to be inclined to believe the prosecution until some stone-cold evidence comes up exonerating the defense.

And again, what could possibly come up that justifies our apparent callous disregard of the swimmers and their complaints? I'm operating under the presumption that almost everything in the Yahoo report is the truth. I recognize there is the potential of some degree of embellishment, perhaps a motivation to make the University pay for its sins. That's human nature. So is covering one's ass in the event of major screwups by others. However, that is just adding another wrong on top of another.

We are in major trouble here. Although I do not fear any action by the NCAA, we are taking a crushing P.R. blow not just in the state, but within the Pac-12 footprint and nationally. Our athletics machine is not anywhere near big enough to overcome this hit quickly, especially if the people in charge are still running the show.

That said, you're probably right when you say the internal investigative process has to take its course. At the very least, what is good for Winslow should be good for Hill -- anything less than paid administrative leave while the investigation is ongoing is tantamount to looking out for Hill's best interests rather than the best interests of the aggrieved parties. Because if the former mindset prevails, it's the quickest way to put our entire athletic program on a self-imposed death penalty and unfairly puts our other coaches in the position of having to defend the athletic department and insist that what happened with the swim team cannot possibly happen within their own program. That Winslow's assistant was apparently a complicit party into his abuse does us no favors as well.

At the end of the day, it's probably in the best interest of everyone for Hill to circumvent all of that and just step down. He has nothing more to accomplish at Utah.

[GarthUte]

I stated earlier in this thread that if the allegations are true, Hill needs to be fired. Now, after thinking about it for a bit, I've decided that Hill needs to be fired if the allegations are true or not. He used up all his "let's wait and see" capital with Majerus and because of the entire mess that happened at Penn State, the U needs to drop the hammer now.

If there are subordinates who kept Hill out of the loop on this, they need to be fired, but that doesn't let Hill off the hook. If that's the case, then Hill needs to be fired for lack of institutional control. He's the boss and therefore, he's responsible for anything and everything that happens regarding the athletic department.

[LA Ute]

Just for everyone's reference, here's what the U's Office of Equal Opportunity has authority to investigate:

Complaints may be filed by employment applicants, faculty, students, staff, and participants in University programs or services who feel they may have been discriminated against on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, age, status as a disabled individual, disabled veteran, or veteran.

Cognizable allegations of discrimination - including sexual harassment and retaliation - will be investigated by the Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action (OEO/AA).

According to the reports so far, OEO was the entity that investigated this matter. I wonder how far their investigation went. It seems to me that any sexual abuse or harassment of athletes, or racial discrimination (the reaction to the Martin Luther King Day joke, for example) would fall under the OEO's authority. The coach being an over-the-top jerk, or endangering the athletes' safety, would not. That would seem to be the Athletic Department's job.

There's a lot more to be known about this. I am not saying that in defense of anyone. I want it all to come out.

EDIT: UTEopia's post reminds me that the female victim came forward only a couple of weeks ago. That means the OEO could not have investigated her claims. So that still needs to be looked into thoroughly. If sexual abuse was going on, at the U. of U., under this coach, then this matter takes on a very different level of seriousness.

[UTEopia]

So I started telling my wife about this and in doing so remembered the Pit as operated by Urban. That could certainly have been characterized as abusive and undoubtedly left guys dizzy and almost blacking out. Does pushing a 50 pound weight back and forth across the dirt infield in 95 degree heat put someone at risk? If they do it for 30 minutes? if they do it for 45? How about carrying a 50 lb weight over your head for multiple circuits of the field and not being allowed to lower it for 30 or 45 minutes? How about rolling across the infield and then bear walking 50 yards back and doing that over and over and over again? Or rolling a 50 gallon drum? Did guys puke? yes. Did they get dizzy? yes. Where is the line? Kyle still employs some of these things but not to the extent or duration that Urban did. Doctors, trainers, administrators, etc are on hand and have seen all of these things done. Where is the line? Are these the equivalent of what is reported by these swimmers and their parents to Yahoo? I am not a swimmer, I don't know.

As for the sexual conduct allegations, it appears that although the conduct occurred over 6 years ago, the victim did not report the conduct to ASU until recently. If that is true I don't see how the U or Hill can be at fault for hiring him in the first place. Now facts may come to light that tell a different story, but for the time being that timeline and the U's response to the reporting of it seems to be timely and appropriate.

[Scratch]

A couple of minor points.

First, I see people keep referring to this as a "coverup." A coverup is when affirmative steps are taken to keep something quiet and out of the public eye. I don't recall anything in the Yahoo article saying that there was a coverup; rather, it dealt with a failure to act in the first place. Obviously, if the underlying behavior warranted actions then this is a serious issue, but it isn't a coverup.

Second, the most interesting thing to me was that the Yahoo article seemed to rely heavily on smoking gun type original source documents. If I recall correctly, there were references to "stacks of letters" or "piles of letters" or something like that that Yahoo obtained. However, I don't believe the article ever cites to any specific allegations that were contained in the letters. Rather, the only quotes from letters are things like "human decency has been violated." It seems odd that the writer wouldn't quote to direct language outlining the inappropriate behavior. If you're going to write a powerful expose, those are the details you want in there, and you probably want to include images of the letters as well. While it may end up meaning nothing, this stood out to me. Oh, and if there had been a coverup, you can bet that these letters would not have still existed for Yahoo to obtain in an open records request.

[Devildog]

Wow.

The sexual allegations aside...

The rest of these "atrocities" committed by the coach and mentioned in this article... are little league antics compared to a single day in Marine Corps boot-camp... and there are a couple hundred thousand jarheads running around on active duty... not crying to the media about their abuse.

Now we need to fire the AD after really only hearing one side of the story from the media that we know sells sensationalism?

[Scratch]

One more thing. With Penn State, the damning bombshells were evidence that Paterno and the PSU higher-ups knew about Sandusky's behavior and did nothing about it. Here, I have yet to see any evidence, even tetimonial, that Hill knew about what was actually happening. Now, you can argue that maybe he should have known, and that may be enough for him to lose his job, but there's a big difference between an AD not knowing something he should know and an AD and an AD affirmatively knowing something and not taking appropriate actions.

All that said, I agree with Garth that the most important thing is looking out for the PR consequences, so even if there isn't evidence of actual knowledge at this point it would probably be appropriate for a suspension pending the results of an investigation.

[Hoyos Revenge]

A couple of minor points.

First, I see people keep referring to this as a "coverup." A coverup is when affirmative steps are taken to keep something quiet and out of the public eye. I don't recall anything in the Yahoo article saying that there was a coverup; rather, it dealt with a failure to act in the first place. Obviously, if the underlying behavior warranted actions then this is a serious issue, but it isn't a coverup.

And I might offer as a counter that this is swimming and the only way for it to come to the public eye would be action by the University. That as long as the U turned a blind eye, no one was going to know because who was going to bother to find out. I honestly wonder if the failure to act was a decision made because firing the coach and having the story come out would be worse. In essence a cover up in plain sight.

[Snowman]

He inculcated a hatred of BYU in his students, so much so that no one on the team owned anything blue other than jeans.

Goes to show, everyone has their good points.

[UTEopia]

And I might offer as a counter that this is swimming and the only way for it to come to the public eye would be action by the University. That as long as the U turned a blind eye, no one was going to know because who was going to bother to find out. I honestly wonder if the failure to act was a decision made because firing the coach and having the story come out would be worse. In essence a cover up in plain sight.

Firing may have given credence to the reports, but there is no way anyone is naive enough to believe that in this day and age allegations of improper conduct can be kept from the public. These swimmers and their parents had many channels open to them for taking these allegations public. The fact that they are public now is example 1 that there was nothing to prevent them from going to the media or the digital world to air their grievances. This in not intended to be an indictment of the swimmers or their parents or an attempt to discredit them in anyway, simply that I believe your speculation is lacking in logic and fact.

[Devildog]

Hey maybe this is a lot of whining from a few crybabies on the swimteam.

[OrangeUte]

This may have already been alluded to. But, my fear is that Hill swept this under the rug to avoid any embarrassment in 2010 when the PAC 12 came calling or in 2011 when we officially joined and had the Capitol step festivities.

The cover up is always the worst part. Sure the U would have fired a coach who was abusive to players (that's all you can pin on the U at this point in time) but that's noble in my opinion even if you are the one who hired him.

Also, was any police report made? Any escalation to the university president or ncaa? Those are some holes I would like to have filled in based on what these parents and athletes claim happened.

[mUUser]

.....
I am reminded of my high school choir director. He was good, and we had a good choir. He also used anger and fear as his primary means of motivation. There would be reports to school administrators about his yelling, throwing chairs against the wall etc.........

He used fear and anger for what?.....to get kids to sing on key?

[Hoyos Revenge]

Firing may have given credence to the reports, but there is no way anyone is naive enough to believe that in this day and age allegations of improper conduct can be kept from the public. These swimmers and their parents had many channels open to them for taking these allegations public. The fact that they are public now is example 1 that there was nothing to prevent them from going to the media or the digital world to air their grievances. This in not intended to be an indictment of the swimmers or their parents or an attempt to discredit them in anyway, simply that I believe your speculation is lacking in logic and fact.

Really? How many more of these scandals need to happen where we say the exact same thing? In fact everytime one comes up everyone says, "how did they expect to keep that quiet." I find shocking that you could think this wasn't a possibility.

[Moliere]

If Hill does get fired, at least he won't be picking your next basketball coach. Sorry, just trying to find the silver lining.

[LA Ute]

If Hill does get fired, at least he won't be picking your next basketball coach. Sorry, just trying to find the silver lining.

Come on, Moliere.

[UTEopia]

Really? How many more of these scandals need to happen where we say the exact same thing? In fact everytime one comes up everyone says, "how did they expect to keep that quiet." I find shocking that you could think this wasn't a possibility.

So let me get this straight, you are not speculating that this is what in fact was the thought process of Hill and others. You believe that it was their thought process and you have some evidence to support this belief.

[Hoyos Revenge]

So let me get this straight, you are not speculating that this is what in fact was the thought process of Hill and others. You believe that it was their thought process and you have some evidence to support this belief.

Fine if we're going to get snarky over people offering reasons as to how this might have happened. First this did go on for five years without so much as an investigation until 2012. This included overlooking a note from Dr. Keith Henschen in the College of Health in 2008 saying that "felt that the communication from the [Utah] coaching staff was negative, humiliating, and disrespectful the majority of time. Incidentally, others on the team expressed to me exactly the same sentiments. "

That alone means the athletic department had knowledge at that point and didn't act. The kid Lezin pointed out that 12 of 17 members of his swim class left the program or were kicked out. And somehow that didn't send up a red flag either.

Essentially we have the entire story from Yahoo of event after event that people in the athletic department knew about and clearly nothing was done. And then you're seriously going to get snarky with me and act like it isn't only possible that maybe probably that the powers that be thought this was swimming and that nothing would come from it.

Sure.

[LA Ute]

Fine if we're going to get snarky over people offering reasons as to how this might have happened. First this did go on for five years without so much as an investigation until 2012. This included overlooking a note from Dr. Keith Henschen in the College of Health in 2008 saying that "felt that the communication from the [Utah] coaching staff was negative, humiliating, and disrespectful the majority of time. Incidentally, others on the team expressed to me exactly the same sentiments. "

That alone means the athletic department had knowledge at that point and didn't act. The kid Lezin pointed out that 12 of 17 members of his swim class left the program or were kicked out. And somehow that didn't send up a red flag either.

Essentially we have the entire story from Yahoo of event after event that people in the athletic department knew about and clearly nothing was done. And then you're seriously going to get snarky with me and act like it isn't only possible that maybe probably that the powers that be thought this was swimming and that nothing would come from it.


Sure.

I think UTEopia was asking whether you were just speculating, or if you have evidence of the thought processes of Hill et al. I don't read him as saying that the scenario you describe is not possible. It looks like you are just offering possible explanations for how all this night have happened. Right?

[big z]

I think UTEopia was asking whether you were just speculating, or if you have evidence of the thought processes of Hill et al. I don't read him as saying that the scenario you describe is not possible. It looks like you are just offering possible explanations for how all this night have happened. Right?

After reading the yahoo report, then the articles in the tribune this morning. I don't see how Hill or the Utah swimming program survives this, I know it's all speculation but there are emails out there back to 2008 sent to Hill. Why are we just hearing about this now?

[LA Ute]

After reading the yahoo report, then the articles in the tribune this morning. I don't see how Hill or the Utah swimming program survives this, I know it's all speculation but there are emails out there back to 2008 sent to Hill. Why are we just hearing about this now?

Good questions. I want this entire story out as soon as it can be responsibly put together. The U's statement:

"Though we cannot comment on the specific allegations at this time, the university does not tolerate misconduct or inappropriate behavior by any member of our community," the statement read. "Greg Winslow was relieved of his duties as swim coach earlier this week and will have no further contact with our student-athletes. The university is investigating the reported incidents and our previous responses to them."

Good.

[UTEopia]

This included overlooking a note from Dr. Keith Henschen in the College of Health in 2008 saying that "felt that the communication from the [Utah] coaching staff was negative, humiliating, and disrespectful the majority of time. Incidentally, others on the team expressed to me exactly the same sentiments. "

That alone means the athletic department had knowledge at that point and didn't act.

I have a couple of problems with your conclusions. First, How do you know that there was no action taken? Second, what exactly do you think that letter by Henschen gave them notice of? That Winslow was a total dick to this kid? That others on the team thought he was a total dick to that kid and possibly to them as well? Unfortunately, it is my experience that a significant percentage of coaches are dicks and that they communicate in a negative, humiliating and disrespectful manner the majority of the time with some people. Some coaches are able to restrict that to the coaching arena and maintain fairly normal relationships with players off the field. Some are not. I have worked with and around a number of people whose communication style is negative, humiliating and disrespectful most of the time. Are they jerks? Yes. So when I read the statement from Henschen quoted by Yahoo I conclude that Winslow was an dick in his personal communications with this kid just like Majerus was sometimes a dick and Urban was sometimes a dick. I do not read it as evidence that anyone was aware of the two instances reported where it sounds like the health and physical welfare of two swimmers was placed at risk.

The kid Lezin pointed out that 12 of 17 members of his swim class left the program or were kicked out. And somehow that didn't send up a red flag either.[/COLOR]

A red flag of what? Of the 25 signees in the 2009 football class, only 12 completed their eligibility at the U. Is Lezin actually right on the numbers? Why and when did they leave? Is that an unusually high number at Utah or at other places? I suspect it is, but I don't know. Were these kids recruited by Winslow or the prior head coach. The basketball program has had higher attrition the last two or three years so is it a red flag, and if so, of what? With Olympic sports, scholarships are usually not given as full grant-in-aid with full room and board. It is not untypical for the scholarship dollars to consolidate to the better performers as they mature in the program. Did kids leave because they were no longer receiving scholarship dollars? I don't know and I am not ready to conclude that this fact (if it is a fact) gives rise to some huge red flag that the University ignored or swept under the rug.

Essentially we have the entire story from Yahoo of event after event that people in the athletic department knew about and clearly nothing was done. [/COLOR]

The point is that in my opinion we do not have the entire story from Yahoo. We have quotes from a handful of former swimmers and some of their parents. There are, in my opinion, two very serious events reported by Yahoo (the kid being forced to swim with PVC pipe and the kid being forced to swim with a bag over the head. These are serious allegations that have been framed in a story with several other allegations of what I would call being a dick and several allegations of poor choices (buying beer for an underaged swimmer being the most serious).

I do not find speculation as to actions or inactions when all of the information is not known and we have only heard one side of the story to not be very helpful. Your comments lead me to believe that you have reached your conclusions as to what exactly happened, when it happened and that the University took no action to address any of the concerns actually reported to them.

I don't know how long Yahoo worked on the article that was released last week. It sounds like the father of one swimmer kicked off the team last fall has been trying to drum up support for his attack since then and I suspect that Yahoo spent at least several weeks if not more time investigating and evaluating what it was going to publish. I am guessing that Yahoo published the most damning information it received and it appears to have been written in a way that makes it difficult for me to really know what exactly was reported and to whom and when.

Having been involved in legal proceedings where serious allegations of sexual harassment and sexual discrimination were made and publicized by the media and then found to be lacking in substance and evidence, I tend to want hear from all sides before reaching any conclusions as to what occurred and who knew what and when. It has also been my experience that sometimes parties with a complaint do not believe that any action has been taken in response to their complaints because the action taken does not comply with the action they want taken.

It sounds like this might be the case with the parent quoted in the Tribune article. The guy who now is "going to bring them to their knees." This fellow seems to have come to party with his complaints rather recently (within the past 3 or 4 months) only after his son (a walk-on with no guarantee of a spot on the team) was dismissed from the team. How many years was the son on the team before he was dismissed? I don't know? Did this conduct that he complains of now bother him and did he relate it to his father at the time and did it bother the father, or did it only begin to bother him when it became useful to him as a means of pushing his agenda? IMO, he was unhappy that Hill did not require Winslow to apologize to his son, reinstate him to the team and give the other kid who left the team an academic scholarship and now, as he says, he will "bring them to their knees." While you may believe that Yahoo has given us the entire story and that the Hill or other top officials of the athletic department clearly knew all of the details and chose to do nothing, I have not seen evidence of this yet and am not prepared to make those leaps until all parties have been heard from.

At the end of the day, I am confident that there will be an investigation and that the allegations that have been made public will be aired out. Your conclusions may carry the day when that day comes. On the other hand the allegations may be found to be lacking in substance and evidence. If the your conclusions are found to be correct, I am sure that the media will let us know in detail. If the allegations are lacking in substance and evidence my guess is that very little will be said. Until that day I am content to let the process run its course without getting too involved with speculation as to motives and thought processes of those involved who may or may not have had any or all of the information.

[UTEopia]

After reading the yahoo report, then the articles in the tribune this morning. I don't see how Hill or the Utah swimming program survives this, I know it's all speculation but there are emails out there back to 2008 sent to Hill. Why are we just hearing about this now?

The one problem I have with the "there are emails dating to 2008" is what do these emails say, who are they from and are we talking about 2 or 3, 20 or 30, 200 or 300? Do they report events where Winslow is a dick or inconsistent in his punishment or do they report events where the health and physical welfare of the student athletes were compromised? It appears from the University's statement that there was a response to those and any other complaints. We don't know what the response was. Was it adequate and the persons raising the charges moved on? Were they inadequate to them but may be seen as reasonable to an objective observer?

Many times internal investigations are internal and people interviewed and the people making the complaints are promised privacy in order to protect them from retaliation. It sounds like most of the people involved with these events had moved on in their lives until the one father started to rally them in the past few months. This is total speculation on my part but it is a possibility as to why we are just hearing about it now.

The University and the Athletic Department will not come out of this unscathed. However, the swim team appears to have completed a very successful season and from perusing the roster it looks like it is mostly comprised of sophomores and freshmen. Unless they revolt in mass, and I don't see why they would if Winslow was the bad guy and now he is gone, the swim team will survive.

Look at Penn State. Yes, that was a huge scandal. The underlying allegations were of the most serious nature and proved to be true. The conduct occurred over a much longer period of time. The people at the top chose to ignore the allegations and hoped they would go away. Severe penalties have been levied against the University and the icon of the University has been brought down. But there seems to be a change in the wind now that there is a new administration, new coaches and the current players, who never were at fault, have carried on. They are now looked at as somewhat nobel for accepting the jobs and continuing to play for the school. The new head coach has stepped into a terrible situation, worked hard and things appear to be moving in a positive direction when a year or so ago it looked like that might never be the case.

[Devildog]

So far, most of the media coverage seems to be from one reporter from Yahoo Sports, Eric Adelson.

The sexual allegations come from one troubled girl, and were from before this coach worked at Utah.

The rest of the allegations (of a non-criminal nature) come from disgruntled swimmers that have an axe to grind with this coach, and the timing is on their side.

He may be a guilty asshole for all I know, but I would try to keep an open mind at this point.

This reporter is trying to make a name for himself, and the complainants here may have an agenda against this coach.

We shouldn't convict Hill before he has even attempted to speak in his own behalf.

[Utah]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

[Hoyos Revenge]

I think UTEopia was asking whether you were just speculating, or if you have evidence of the thought processes of Hill et al. I don't read him as saying that the scenario you describe is not possible. It looks like you are just offering possible explanations for how all this night have happened. Right?

That is all I was doing.

[Hoyos Revenge]

Here is the Link

FWIW this blog was the one that broke the story about Winslows arrest I believe. Also as you'll see at the bottom, Chris Hill and Liz Abel deny this.

Thought it was worth posting.

In fact it looks like Concussioninc.net has really taken up coverage of Utah Swim Scandal if you want to follow