Allegations Chris Hill Ignored Swim Team Abuses...

[Katy Lied]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think)

For someone who mentions BYU or BYU athletes in 3 of your last 4 posts (you even came up with a Jimmer reference fer crissakes), I think you do this scandal a disservice when you palm it off as the collective schadenfreude of BYU fans who take delight in the misfortune of the U. I'm not celebrating anything except for rage. I have some skin in this game. I am reading coverage of this in Swimming World and Swim News, the magazines that every age group coach in the US reads as they guide their underage athletes in choosing a college. I'm seeing texts from high schools swimmers to Utah swimmers, asking "Gosh, is this really true? What's going on there?" and specifically linking the Yahoo article. I'm seeing Utah swimmers and divers refuse to wear their team gear on campus because they are ashamed of their coach and don't want anyone to know they are on the team. I'm seeing a team that terribly under performed at the conference championships two weeks ago because the problem wasn't taken care of in a timely manner and blew up during the most important meet of the year.

This is a bad man who needs to be hunted down and fired, not kept on the University payroll until his contract runs out. Doing that will enable Winslow to get a job at another school to prey on more 18 year olds because gee, his contract just ran out at Utah. He's only been a Ute for 3 years, and he will singlehandedly take down a decent program because no one stopped him when charges were first made. You think Arizona will suffer because he committed his pedophilia there? No one will remember Arizona, they will just associate the Crimes of Greg Winslow with Utah.

[LA Ute]

This is an important article on the subject of coaches sexually abusing athletes:

Stand Up Speak Out


It came out in early December. I wonder if it prompted the swimmer in this case to come forward.

[GarthUte]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

You seem to be saying that this should just be ignored because it's just swimming. I disagree completely. This is a situation that will affect the entire athletic department and has already caused too much damage to the university's good name. If it isn't handled immediately in a heavy-handed manner, then the damage will be irreparable. Hill is the AD. This happened under his watch. Whether he knew about it or not is irrelevant.

As for what BYU fans think, you've demonstrated in most of your other posts that you very much care. You find a way to work in your opinions of that fanbase in most all of your posts.

[GarthUte]

So far, most of the media coverage seems to be from one reporter from Yahoo Sports, Eric Adelson.

The sexual allegations come from one troubled girl, and were from before this coach worked at Utah.

The rest of the allegations (of a non-criminal nature) come from disgruntled swimmers that have an axe to grind with this coach, and the timing is on their side.

He may be a guilty asshole for all I know, but I would try to keep an open mind at this point.

This reporter is trying to make a name for himself, and the complainants here may have an agenda against this coach.

We shouldn't convict Hill before he has even attempted to speak in his own behalf.

If we set aside the allegations, the fact remains that this is a public relations nightmare. The buck stops Hill because he is the AD.

[Jarid in Cedar]

You seem to be saying that this should just be ignored because it's just swimming. I disagree completely. This is a situation that will affect the entire athletic department and has already caused too much damage to the university's good name. If it isn't handled immediately in a heavy-handed manner, then the damage will be irreparable. Hill is the AD. This happened under his watch. Whether he knew about it or not is irrelevant.

As for what BYU fans think, you've demonstrated in most of your other posts that you very much care. You find a way to work in your opinions of that fanbase in most all of your posts.

I think several facts need to be established:

1. What was known by whom and when did they know.
2. What action was taken and when.
3. Who performed the universities investigation, how long did that take, and when was it performed.

This is probably going to end up as a situation that is not as bad as it first appears, but not as good as we would like. Particularly if the investigation was performed by an entity outside of the athletic department.

[Jarid in Cedar]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

Frankly, I care quite a bit about the outcome of this situation. I push plenty of funding into the athletic department. If the allegations are correct, AND no corrective action is taken by the university moving forward, then I may reconsider.

I don't have an agenda for the removal of anyone. But if Hill, or others knew about much of this for 3-4 years and choose to sit on it for whatever reason, then heads should roll. If they don't, that is a problem to me.

[SoCalPat]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

Goodness, you're brilliant. I can see it now.

University General Counsel: C'mon in Chris. Sit down.

Chris Hill: I'm guessing I know what this is about.

UGC: Certainly. What do you have to say.

CH: Well, it's only swimming. And March Madness is here. This will blow over quickly. Fuck the swimmers. Oh, and screw the Y.!

UGC: Genius plan! How about an extension and a raise?

[GarthUte]

I think several facts need to be established:

1. What was known by whom and when did they know.
2. What action was taken and when.
3. Who performed the universities investigation, how long did that take, and when was it performed.

This is probably going to end up as a situation that is not as bad as it first appears, but not as good as we would like. Particularly if the investigation was performed by an entity outside of the athletic department.

While you make fair points, the only fact that really matters right now is that this is being seen as Penn State 2.0 across the country. The U is not in position to decide what the perception should be and not getting rid of Hill only confirms to the general public that it's being covered up.

The reset button for Utah's athletic department needs to be pushed because in the court of public opinion, the standard isn't even as high as the preponderance of evidence. Perception is reality and the only way to control any more damage is to fire Hill.

[SoCalPat]

The Concussioninc.net people are absolutely killing us. Also, Hill learned from JoePa in how to pass the buck.

[Jarid in Cedar]

While you make fair points, the only fact that really matters right now is that this is being seen as Penn State 2.0 across the country. The U is not in position to decide what the perception should be and not getting rid of Hill only confirms to the general public that it's being covered up.

The reset button for Utah's athletic department needs to be pushed because in the court of public opinion, the standard isn't even as high as the preponderance of evidence. Perception is reality and the only way to control any more damage is to fire Hill.

I don't think you make a move just for public perception. That is allowing the terrorists to win. Action simply for the sake of action can be just as harmful as inaction.

You fire folks for not performing their job to the expectations that are laid out.

[LA Ute]

I think several facts need to be established:

1. What was known by whom and when did they know.
2. What action was taken and when.
3. Who performed the universities investigation, how long did that take, and when was it performed.

This is probably going to end up as a situation that is not as bad as it first appears, but not as good as we would like. Particularly if the investigation was performed by an entity outside of the athletic department.

I agree. I hope they move quickly and vigorously on this. The only investigation reported so far is the Office of Equal Opportunity's, and they probably would have focused on discrimination based on gender, race, age, religion, and the other protected categories. They wouldn't have looked at monstrous behavior by the coach that didnot involve those categories. Also, the one swimmer's sexual abuse allegations didn't come out until after the OEO's last investigation, so that has to be looked into, and I think the possibility that sexual abuse was going on inside the program is the higher priority.

[480ute]

In short, it's going to be a while before anyone can draw any conclusions. So saying "If this is true, he should be punished" is kind of empty. It's like saying "If the accused murderer is guilty, he should be punished." Of course he should.

Yeah, except for the fact that you have several people saying that even if he is guilty of the claims, the behavior isn't bad enough to warrant any punishment.

[UBlender]

While you make fair points, the only fact that really matters right now is that this is being seen as Penn State 2.0 across the country. The U is not in position to decide what the perception should be and not getting rid of Hill only confirms to the general public that it's being covered up.

The reset button for Utah's athletic department needs to be pushed because in the court of public opinion, the standard isn't even as high as the preponderance of evidence. Perception is reality and the only way to control any more damage is to fire Hill.

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0??? Come on, it's not even close to that and while perception is reality, nobody with half a brain is going to equate some abusive training tactics by a coach off his rocker with rape of little boys that was facilitated by the university. A LOT more will have to come out for this to be anywhere in the Penn State realm--I realize the coach is accused of sexual abuse, an accusation that was not made until recently for an event that did not happen at Utah.

Any Utah AD personnel who knew of the situation and failed to act should be held accountable, but let's not go crazy and start firing people before proven guilty just for the sake of appeasing a general public that does not appear to be all that engaged in this story.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see how much this story takes hold. It broke on Yahoo Friday night but I never saw any other national outlets pick it up (at least not in any publicized manner--Penn State 2.0 would be leading SportsCenter). I went to my parents' house yesterday. They are big Ute fans who don't follow twitter or any message boards and they had heard nothing of this story. The point being it hasn't gone mainstream yet--maybe it will, maybe it won't. The amount of public attention that it does end up getting should not influence the handling, guilty parties should be held accountable regardless. Sadly, that may not be the case.

[UtahDan]

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0???

Yeah, I'm not going to make any "no true Scotsman" type declarations, but I don't think it serves the University for its own supporters to be repeating that comparison.

[SoCalPat]

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0??? Come on, it's not even close to that and while perception is reality, nobody with half a brain is going to equate some abusive training tactics by a coach off his rocker with rape of little boys that was facilitated by the university. A LOT more will have to come out for this to be anywhere in the Penn State realm--I realize the coach is accused of sexual abuse, an accusation that was not made until recently for an event that did not happen at Utah.

Any Utah AD personnel who knew of the situation and failed to act should be held accountable, but let's not go crazy and start firing people before proven guilty just for the sake of appeasing a general public that does not appear to be all that engaged in this story.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see how much this story takes hold. It broke on Yahoo Friday night but I never saw any other national outlets pick it up (at least not in any publicized manner--Penn State 2.0 would be leading SportsCenter). I went to my parents' house yesterday. They are big Ute fans who don't follow twitter or any message boards and they had heard nothing of this story. The point being it hasn't gone mainstream yet--maybe it will, maybe it won't. The amount of public attention that it does end up getting should not influence the handling, guilty parties should be held accountable regardless. Sadly, that may not be the case.

Nobody is equating Winslow's crimes with Sandusky's. In that regard, you're right ... it's a million miles from being like Penn State.

But anyone who doesn't see the similarities in how Penn State acted and how Utah has reportedly reacted is just being deliberately ignorant. Hill has acknowledged passing the buck on this matter, much like Paterno did when McQueary came to him with what he saw. If we're to believe Hill, then we have knowledge that Pershing knew of the problems. We have OEO getting less-than-forthcoming attitudes from the athletic department when investigating Winslow's predatory past. There should be some outrage against ASU, which likely heard some whispers about Winslow or had direct knowledge of his behavior. We have an athletic department official with direct and intimate knowledge of Winslow departing under circumstances that are at best, mysterious.

As for the P.R. angle involved, this should be highly embarrassing to anyone holding a U. degree. Our anger should not be limited to whether this story gets play on SportsCenter or not. That mindset only adds to the problem that exists here -- many people at the U. were more concerned about public image than with doing the right thing. In that case, this is EXACTLY like what happened at Penn State.

[GarthUte]

I don't think you make a move just for public perception. That is allowing the terrorists to win. Action simply for the sake of action can be just as harmful as inaction.

You fire folks for not performing their job to the expectations that are laid out.

I tend to believe that Hill did fail to do his job to the expectations that are laid out. He either ignored what was happening or lost institutional control of his department.

[GarthUte]

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0??? Come on, it's not even close to that and while perception is reality, nobody with half a brain is going to equate some abusive training tactics by a coach off his rocker with rape of little boys that was facilitated by the university. A LOT more will have to come out for this to be anywhere in the Penn State realm--I realize the coach is accused of sexual abuse, an accusation that was not made until recently for an event that did not happen at Utah.

Any Utah AD personnel who knew of the situation and failed to act should be held accountable, but let's not go crazy and start firing people before proven guilty just for the sake of appeasing a general public that does not appear to be all that engaged in this story.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see how much this story takes hold. It broke on Yahoo Friday night but I never saw any other national outlets pick it up (at least not in any publicized manner--Penn State 2.0 would be leading SportsCenter). I went to my parents' house yesterday. They are big Ute fans who don't follow twitter or any message boards and they had heard nothing of this story. The point being it hasn't gone mainstream yet--maybe it will, maybe it won't. The amount of public attention that it does end up getting should not influence the handling, guilty parties should be held accountable regardless. Sadly, that may not be the case.

Yes, Blender. Penn State 2.0. I'll repeat that the U does not get to choose what the consequences of this will be, particularly with regard to public relations/image. This isn't about the level of abuse that has taken place; it's about how the U will be and is perceived across the country. It's better for Hill to get fired than the U to become a pariah. And I say pariah because Utah doesn't have the clout to fend off that label.

[SeattleUte]

Yeah, I'm not going to make any "no true Scotsman" type declarations, but I don't think it serves the University for its own supporters to be repeating that comparison.

Yes, it's really offensive and absoluty outrageous that anyone would compare this to Penn State. Who is doing that except cougjunkie and a few overwrough Ute fans who may have had Chris Hill in their cross hairs? I would expect this of cougjunkie, but not of thoughtful Ute fans. Really, it evinces total ignorance about Penn State, what happened there, what is still happening with the criminal prosecutions. Is there any allegation that anyone at Utah over years systamatically and deliberately concealed sexual abuse of children that they were required by law to report? Please, wtop these infantile comparisons to Penn State.

And the U of U hasn't suffered any real PR damage so far. Certainly we all know where yahoo and the Salt Lake Tribune sit in the pecking order of respectable journalism. I look at the list of the swim coach's misdeeds, and the only one that looks really terrible is the pvc story, and who knows the real story, what Hill knew and when he knew it. The 15 year old girl wasn't molested at Utah, it was an ALLEGATION about something that happened years before he came to Utah. Apparenntly she followed him Utah as an adult, but there's no allegation of sex. Notably, no prosecutor pressed charges. Again, what did Hill know and when did he know it? He screamed at students? I'm shocked! Shocked! He kicked a swimmer off the team for breaking team rules? outrageous! The parent who's speaking out (after his walk on kid got kicked off the team for breaking team rules) seems despicable. Ultimately, Hill did fire the coach, and we don't know but that he did it after a full and fair investigation. I know many here are aware of the due process obligations that Utah, as a government institution, owes its employees.

When people thought Chris Hill was the one winning those championships and making history in the post-season, I thought he was hugely over-praised. On the other hand, I also think he's been unduly criticized for his basketball hires, especially Giacoletti. Now I think the mean spirited desire of some to bring him down is distasteful. What's that saying about what happens when you deify a human?

[Jarid in Cedar]

I tend to believe that Hill did fail to do his job to the expectations that are laid out. He either ignored what was happening or lost institutional control of his department.

Which I would agree to if the facts show that he was aware of the allegations and opted to sit on his hands. If his action was to sanction an investigation, and that investigation recommended that no further action be taken, then where do we stand? If the investigation was made and determined that the facts did not support the allegations, then where do we stand? If he took no action on the allegations at hand, then I think you have case for dismissal, even if the allegations turn out to be incorrect(or embellished to an extreme degree). You fire Hill for gross inaction, for which the only evidence that has been brought to light is the allegations made by the Yahoo article. If the internal investigation corroborates the initial claims, then the course is fairly straightforward, IMO.

[GarthUte]

Here is the Link

FWIW this blog was the one that broke the story about Winslows arrest I believe. Also as you'll see at the bottom, Chris Hill and Liz Abel deny this.

Thought it was worth posting.

In fact it looks like Concussioninc.net has really taken up coverage of Utah Swim Scandal if you want to follow

This is exactly why there needs to be a reset of the athletic department. Damage control isn't just about saving face. It's also about eliminating the problems.

[UBlender]

Yes, Blender. Penn State 2.0. I'll repeat that the U does not get to choose what the consequences of this will be, particularly with regard to public relations/image. This isn't about the level of abuse that has taken place; it's about how the U will be and is perceived across the country. It's better for Hill to get fired than the U to become a pariah. And I say pariah because Utah doesn't have the clout to fend off that label.

Of course, the U does not get to choose the consequences. To this point, that public relations hit hasn't taken hold and it is unclear if it will. As Utah alumni and fans, we are embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed. I just don't think that neutral fans in North Carolina, Iowa and Oregon have heard much about this story and if they did they haven't given it much thought at all. There is still time for this to go mainstream so maybe that will change. Even if the story does go mainstream national I still have strong doubts as to whether it would ever go anywhere near Penn State which was on the front page of every outlet for weeks. That is why I can't buy this as Penn State 2.0. The "cover-up" may be the same but the crime that set this all off isn't on that level and the public interest in this story is not there (yet) either (and I don't think it will get to that point).

Again, the level of attention that the story draws should be irrelevant in how it is handled by the university, but we've already failed in that regard.

[GarthUte]

Which I would agree to if the facts show that he was aware of the allegations and opted to sit on his hands. If his action was to sanction an investigation, and that investigation recommended that no further action be taken, then where do we stand? If the investigation was made and determined that the facts did not support the allegations, then where do we stand? If he took no action on the allegations at hand, then I think you have case for dismissal, even if the allegations turn out to be incorrect(or embellished to an extreme degree). You fire Hill for gross inaction, for which the only evidence that has been brought to light is the allegations made by the Yahoo article. If the internal investigation corroborates the initial claims, then the course is fairly straightforward, IMO.

Of course, the U does not get to choose the consequences. To this point, that public relations hit hasn't taken hold and it is unclear if it will. As Utah alumni and fans, we are embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed. I just don't think that neutral fans in North Carolina, Iowa and Oregon have heard much about this story and if they did they haven't given it much thought at all. There is still time for this to go mainstream so maybe that will change. Even if the story does go mainstream national I still have strong doubts as to whether it would ever go anywhere near Penn State which was on the front page of every outlet for weeks. That is why I can't buy this as Penn State 2.0. The "cover-up" may be the same but the crime that set this all off isn't on that level and the public interest in this story is not there (yet) either (and I don't think it will get to that point).

Again, the level of attention that the story draws should be irrelevant in how it is handled by the university, but we've already failed in that regard.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this, which isn't a bad thing.

[SoCalPat]

Yes, it's really offensive and absoluty outrageous that anyone would compare this to Penn State. Who is doing that except cougjunkie and a few overwrough Ute fans who may have had Chris Hill in their cross hairs? I would expect this of cougjunkie, but not of thoughtful Ute fans. Really, it evinces total ignorance about Penn State, what happened there, what is still happening with the criminal prosecutions. Is there any allegation that anyone at Utah over years systamatically and deliberately concealed sexual abuse of children that they were required by law to report? Please, wtop these infantile comparisons to Penn State.

And the U of U hasn't suffered any real PR damage so far. Certainly we all know where yahoo and the Salt Lake Tribune sit in the pecking order of respectable journalism. I look at the list of the swim coach's misdeeds, and the only one that looks really terrible is the pvc story, and who knows the real story, what Hill knew and when he knew it. The 15 year old girl wasn't molested at Utah, it was an ALLEGATION about something that happened years before he came to Utah. Apparenntly she followed him Utah as an adult, but there's no allegation of sex. Notably, no prosecutor pressed charges. Again, what did Hill know and when did he know it? He screamed at students? I'm shocked! Shocked! He kicked a swimmer off the team for breaking team rules? outrageous! The parent who's speaking out (after his walk on kid got kicked off the team for breaking team rules) seems despicable. Ultimately, Hill did fire the coach, and we don't know but that he did it after a full and fair investigation. I know many here are aware of the due process obligations that Utah, as a government institution, owes its employees.

When people thought Chris Hill was the one winning those championships and making history in the post-season, I thought he was hugely over-praised. On the other hand, I also think he's been unduly criticized for his basketball hires, especially Giacoletti. Now I think the mean spirited desire of some to bring him down is distasteful. What's that saying about what happens when you deify a human?

You were woefully behind the curve when you first spoke out about Penn State, so I'm not surprised this is your response. Discredit the media, downplay the seriousness of the allegations and that the legal process should play out.

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...ate-pedophilia

[UBlender]

Nobody is equating Winslow's crimes with Sandusky's. In that regard, you're right ... it's a million miles from being like Penn State.

But anyone who doesn't see the similarities in how Penn State acted and how Utah has reportedly reacted is just being deliberately ignorant. Hill has acknowledged passing the buck on this matter, much like Paterno did when McQueary came to him with what he saw. If we're to believe Hill, then we have knowledge that Pershing knew of the problems. We have OEO getting less-than-forthcoming attitudes from the athletic department when investigating Winslow's predatory past. There should be some outrage against ASU, which likely heard some whispers about Winslow or had direct knowledge of his behavior. We have an athletic department official with direct and intimate knowledge of Winslow departing under circumstances that are at best, mysterious.

As for the P.R. angle involved, this should be highly embarrassing to anyone holding a U. degree. Our anger should not be limited to whether this story gets play on SportsCenter or not. That mindset only adds to the problem that exists here -- many people at the U. were more concerned about public image than with doing the right thing. In that case, this is EXACTLY like what happened at Penn State.

Okay, I don't disagree that if the cover up happened then that is similar, although one could argue that what Penn State covered up is worse and therefore the coverup itself is worse, but that's a pointless exercise. As others have stated, it comes down to what did Hill and Pershing know and when did they know it. From most of what I've seen it sounds like all of the allegations were funneled through Oleszcak (sp?). This was an error on Hill's part and may cost him his job. As for perception, perhaps Utah would have been best served acknowledging the scandal and Oleszcak's failure at the time of his dismissal--there would have been some blow-back on Hill and others but probably not as bad in that case.

As for PR, I understand your point and agree that as alumni and fans we should be (and mostly are) embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed of those involved (and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it leads SportsCenter). Until/unless the story gets worse and gets much more mainstream national attention Utah will not be held in esteem with Penn State by your average neutral fan across the country.

[SoCalPat]

Okay, I don't disagree that if the cover up happened then that is similar, although one could argue that what Penn State covered up is worse and therefore the coverup itself is worse, but that's a pointless exercise. As others have stated, it comes down to what did Hill and Pershing know and when did they know it. From most of what I've seen it sounds like all of the allegations were funneled through Oleszcak (sp?). This was an error on Hill's part and may cost him his job. As for perception, perhaps Utah would have been best served acknowledging the scandal and Oleszcak's failure at the time of his dismissal--there would have been some blow-back on Hill and others but probably not as bad in that case.

As for PR, I understand your point and agree that as alumni and fans we should be (and mostly are) embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed of those involved (and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it leads SportsCenter). Until/unless the story gets worse and gets much more mainstream national attention Utah will not be held in esteem with Penn State by your average neutral fan across the country.

As I type this, there are over 1,500 responses to the Yahoo story. Only ESPN.com draws more hits among sports sites than Yahoo. You don't even need to get past the first page of comments to see that many are already holding Utah in the same esteem as Penn State. And this story will continue to get more publicity and press, especially once heads roll and people become more familiar with the story. The toothpaste is already out of the tube on this one, the cap is missing and the squeeze is being put upon the entire University. It is a mess.

The only winners in this entire affair are Pons and Fleischmann. Their status as lead actors in the most embarrassing moment in U. history has been emphatically supplanted.

[kccougar]

Okay, I don't disagree that if the cover up happened then that is similar, although one could argue that what Penn State covered up is worse and therefore the coverup itself is worse, but that's a pointless exercise. As others have stated, it comes down to what did Hill and Pershing know and when did they know it. From most of what I've seen it sounds like all of the allegations were funneled through Oleszcak (sp?). This was an error on Hill's part and may cost him his job. As for perception, perhaps Utah would have been best served acknowledging the scandal and Oleszcak's failure at the time of his dismissal--there would have been some blow-back on Hill and others but probably not as bad in that case.

As for PR, I understand your point and agree that as alumni and fans we should be (and mostly are) embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed of those involved (and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it leads SportsCenter). Until/unless the story gets worse and gets much more mainstream national attention Utah will not be held in esteem with Penn State by your average neutral fan across the country.

There is no doubt in my mind that Hill knew of the allegations. Multiple people here can attest that Hill is not insulated and communicates frequently with those that contact him. I've even sent him an email on one occassion, and he called me at my office to dicuss my email within about an hour of my sending it. If parents of 4 or 5 athletes sent Hill letters or email there is no doubt he was aware of their concerns.

What needs to be established is what his response was to the allegations that go back as far as 2008.

[UBlender]

There is no doubt in my mind that Hill knew of the allegations. Multiple people here can attest that Hill is not insulated and communicates frequently with those that contact him. I've even sent him an email on one occassion, and he called me at my office to dicuss my email within about an hour of my sending it. If parents of 4 or 5 athletes sent Hill letters or email there is no doubt he was aware of their concerns.

What needs to be established is what his response was to the allegations that go back as far as 2008.

I agree, it seems likely that he knew.

[UBlender]

As I type this, there are over 1,500 responses to the Yahoo story. Only ESPN.com draws more hits among sports sites than Yahoo. You don't even need to get past the first page of comments to see that many are already holding Utah in the same esteem as Penn State. And this story will continue to get more publicity and press, especially once heads roll and people become more familiar with the story. The toothpaste is already out of the tube on this one, the cap is missing and the squeeze is being put upon the entire University. It is a mess.

The only winners in this entire affair are Pons and Fleischmann. Their status as lead actors in the most embarrassing moment in U. history has been emphatically supplanted.

We'll see. You may well be right, but 1,500 comments on one article is nothing compared to Penn State with front page articles for two months and the millions of comments that must have been posted on them. I agree, it is a mess and it is likely that heads will roll. I am just not convinced the magnitude of the public perception and national mainstream media will go as far as some believe.

[Scratch]

Nobody is equating Winslow's crimes with Sandusky's. In that regard, you're right ... it's a million miles from being like Penn State.

But anyone who doesn't see the similarities in how Penn State acted and how Utah has reportedly reacted is just being deliberately ignorant. Hill has acknowledged passing the buck on this matter, much like Paterno did when McQueary came to him with what he saw. If we're to believe Hill, then we have knowledge that Pershing knew of the problems. We have OEO getting less-than-forthcoming attitudes from the athletic department when investigating Winslow's predatory past. There should be some outrage against ASU, which likely heard some whispers about Winslow or had direct knowledge of his behavior. We have an athletic department official with direct and intimate knowledge of Winslow departing under circumstances that are at best, mysterious.

As for the P.R. angle involved, this should be highly embarrassing to anyone holding a U. degree. Our anger should not be limited to whether this story gets play on SportsCenter or not. That mindset only adds to the problem that exists here -- many people at the U. were more concerned about public image than with doing the right thing. In that case, this is EXACTLY like what happened at Penn State.

Pat:

You make a lot of claims here that I haven't seen substantiated in any media reports. I'd be interested in knowing what those claims are based on. For example, how did Hill pass the buck? By ordering an investigation and then relying on that? Would you have rather had the AD department conduct the investigation? If that had been the case, this would have been much, much worse. With McQueary, you had an eye witness confirming anal rape of a young boy. That's an extremely serious crime, and one that Paterno and everyone else at PSU should have reported immediately to law enforcement. What do you have here? Supposedly reports from the would-be victims of extreme training techniques (and I say supposedly because the Yahoo article was eerily silent on the actual details that were reported to Hill; if you look at the letter excerpts, which should have been the smoking guns, the article only quotes general statements about the "abusive and traumatic coaching situation," as opposed to referencing specific behavior. It is also very interesting that Yahoo hasn't publicized any of the actual letters). Furthermore, unlike McQueary, it sounds like the activities raised in the article would have occurred in settings with lots of witnesses, who should be able to confirm or deny what was alleged. It sounds to me like a very thorough investigation occurred (over 50 interviews by a competent investigator) and the allegations were not corroborated. I haven't seen anything where Hill passed the buck, and if you're going after Hill you have to make the case that Hill knew that inappropriate behavior was occurring and he did nothing about it. The Yahoo article certainly does not do that.

[SoCalPat]

We'll see. You may well be right, but 1,500 comments on one article is nothing compared to Penn State with front page articles for two months and the millions of comments that must have been posted on them. I agree, it is a mess and it is likely that heads will roll. I am just not convinced the magnitude of the public perception and national mainstream media will go as far as some believe.

As far as national perception is concerned, our only saving grace right now is that this is swimming.

The moment a Utah swimmer makes a second accusation of sexual misconduct against Winslow, or if the atmosphere that existed within the swim program is entrenched in another sport, it becomes a much bigger deal. I would not bet against the former form happening. I would be very surprised if anything like this existed in another sport at the U.