What is up with North Korea?

[Eddie]

So - they've authorized nuclear strikes against the US. Um...OK.

What is up with this newest Kim dude. Seriously. I can't figure him out.

Has he ever been outside of Korea? Or, better asked, has he ever been to the "west"? Does he have any understanding of what he is up against if he were to actually initiate a war? He grew up in the world of daddy's hyperbole, so does he believe it never having seen anything different?

Let's assume that he actually COULD get a missile launch to reach the US. What does he think happens next?

And let's assume that he thinks that this will result in a conventional war and he likes his chances due to having a large armed force - how does he see China reacting? Does he see them pouring over the border in his support like they did 60+ years ago?

I just don't see any way that NK starting something ends well for them. I kind of feel like I did when my neighbor's 2 year-old kid once told me he was going to beat me up. Um...OK. Now, sure. If I fall asleep in the yard and he sneaks up with a baseball bat he is going to hurt me. But he isn't going to "win" anything.

[DanielLaRusso]

The sabre-rattling is an important way to keep the Kim personality cult alive. He'll declare war a few times, inevitably get some sort of aid from China or the US, and it will be written in the history books as the mighty Kim Jong Un besting the world powers and saving the DPRK from Western threats. The people will erect a statue, write some songs, weep a little. It's pernicious, but effective at maintaining the system of power they believe is superior to ours.

He went to school in Switzerland so he's fully aware of the power structure on the planet (He also speaks English fluently). In fact, many North Koreans are. Here is some state propaganda that should shed some light on that fact.

I could write a book on here about the DPRK, but I'll spare you all and just leave it there.

[Katy Lied]

The sabre-rattling is an important way to keep the Kim personality cult alive. He'll declare war a few times, inevitably get some sort of aid from China or the US, and it will be written in the history books as the mighty Kim Jong Un besting the world powers and saving the DPRK from Western threats. The people will erect a statue, write some songs, weep a little. It's pernicious, but effective at maintaining the system of power they believe is superior to ours.

He went to school in Switzerland so he's fully aware of the power structure on the planet (He also speaks English fluently). In fact, many North Koreans are. Here is some state propaganda that should shed some light on that fact.

I could write a book on here about the DPRK, but I'll spare you all and just leave it there.

You should tell us more. We are interested. I am seriously considering going there for the mass games.

[Eddie]

The sabre-rattling is an important way to keep the Kim personality cult alive. He'll declare war a few times, inevitably get some sort of aid from China or the US, and it will be written in the history books as the mighty Kim Jong Un besting the world powers and saving the DPRK from Western threats. The people will erect a statue, write some songs, weep a little. It's pernicious, but effective at maintaining the system of power they believe is superior to ours.

He went to school in Switzerland so he's fully aware of the power structure on the planet (He also speaks English fluently). In fact, many North Koreans are. Here is some state propaganda that should shed some light on that fact.

I could write a book on here about the DPRK, but I'll spare you all and just leave it there.

See - the video that you shared above seems to indicate that everything they see is all propaganda. Meaning that none of it is real. So do the people think that in reality that have it better off than folks in the USA? Do they think their military is the most powerful on the earth? Do they even have a concept of the size of their country compared to the rest of the globe and the proportion of resources, wealth, etc. that they have compared to countries around them? I don't think so.

I do like how they talk about consumer slaves who are buying things they don't need. What a great way to subtly tell your population that they don't "need" all of those fancy things the folks in the "west" have.

[GarthUte]

I think Kim Jong Un is just ticked that Conan showed the top secret footage of a N. Korean long range missile test:

http://teamcoco.com/video/north-korean-missile-tests

[USS Utah]

North Korea is the squeaky wheel and apparently it is time for it to get greased. Usually one of two things happens, or sometimes both -- North Korea gets some foreign aid and/or the U.S. makes a show of force. The last time NK was squeaking, after it sank a South Korean ship, the U.S. sent an aircraft carrier into the Sea of Japan (the USS George Washington, which is based in Japan) and that ended the crisis. What's different this time is that after the U.S. sent two stealth bombers over the Korean peninsula, NK started squeaking even louder. Who knows what that means? Perhaps a quick overflight isn't as impressive as a carrier parked off your shore.

[DanielLaRusso]

See - the video that you shared above seems to indicate that everything they see is all propaganda. Meaning that none of it is real. So do the people think that in reality that have it better off than folks in the USA? Do they think their military is the most powerful on the earth? Do they even have a concept of the size of their country compared to the rest of the globe and the proportion of resources, wealth, etc. that they have compared to countries around them? I don't think so.

I do like how they talk about consumer slaves who are buying things they don't need. What a great way to subtly tell your population that they don't "need" all of those fancy things the folks in the "west" have.

I'm always intrigued to see responses to that particular piece of propaganda. I myself tend to find a lot of truth in it (though naturally I don't agree with the means the DPRK uses to enforce their ideology). But I think it's interesting to watch one flock of sheeple vociferously argue against another.

Discussing the views of the populace is a tricky issue, mostly because we tend to assume the dissenters represent the REAL attitudes of Koreans, while those who feed the party lines are just playing the fool. You could almost compare it to religion. Many believe that when they live up to Maoist ideals that DOES make them better than people in other nations. This has lead to a view of being a chosen people who are left to suffer the presence of our lower values. For a lot, this makes it easy to look at all of our glittering goods and scoff. In terms of military, they think the US would ever use our full power against them. And why should they? They have nuclear weapons. Nuclear armed nations don't engage in outright war (Even India and Pakistan don't want to do it). In terms of resources, they know they are hungry and poor...but recall that's a higher value. If it weren't for the whole worshiping a god on Earth, they would make stunning monks.

[Eddie]

I'm always intrigued to see responses to that particular piece of propaganda. I myself tend to find a lot of truth in it (though naturally I don't agree with the means the DPRK uses to enforce their ideology). But I think it's interesting to watch one flock of sheeple vociferously argue against another.

Discussing the views of the populace is a tricky issue, mostly because we tend to assume the dissenters represent the REAL attitudes of Koreans, while those who feed the party lines are just playing the fool. You could almost compare it to religion. Many believe that when they live up to Maoist ideals that DOES make them better than people in other nations. This has lead to a view of being a chosen people who are left to suffer the presence of our lower values. For a lot, this makes it easy to look at all of our glittering goods and scoff. In terms of military, they think the US would ever use our full power against them. And why should they? They have nuclear weapons. Nuclear armed nations don't engage in outright war (Even India and Pakistan don't want to do it). In terms of resources, they know they are hungry and poor...but recall that's a higher value. If it weren't for the whole worshiping a god on Earth, they would make stunning monks.

When you say you see a lot of truth in it, are you referring to the concept that the US (or the west) employs more propagandists per capita than anywhere else? Because I agree with that. I did find it funny that they lumped in all of the business and marketing folks. And while I'm sure the government wants citizens buying things to keep the economy rolling, I'm not sure I believe the idea that the government is trying to distract people by sending them shopping for things they don't need. Though I would agree with the concept that the government likes it when the economy is rolling along, because that makes life pretty good and gets people forgetting and/or ignoring some of the other issues.

So I suppose I don't discount things entirely. But I'm not sure I agree with the idea the video pumps out that everything every propagandist says is all lies. Sure - there is spin involved. But spin and lies are two different things. You can interpret events differently without it being lies.

I don't know what they hope to gain from telling us that they are at war with us and telling us that they are going to launch nuclear weapons. Part of me is curious as to what they would say if the US came back with "we're worried about you launching nuclear weapons at us, so we are going to launch ours at you first."

I like the comparison to monks. They feel like their way of living is the right way to live. OK. They are welcome to it. After all, as noted in the film you linked, everything we eat is bad for us.

[DanielLaRusso]

When you say you see a lot of truth in it, are you referring to the concept that the US (or the west) employs more propagandists per capita than anywhere else? Because I agree with that. I did find it funny that they lumped in all of the business and marketing folks. And while I'm sure the government wants citizens buying things to keep the economy rolling, I'm not sure I believe the idea that the government is trying to distract people by sending them shopping for things they don't need. Though I would agree with the concept that the government likes it when the economy is rolling along, because that makes life pretty good and gets people forgetting and/or ignoring some of the other issues.

So I suppose I don't discount things entirely. But I'm not sure I agree with the idea the video pumps out that everything every propagandist says is all lies. Sure - there is spin involved. But spin and lies are two different things. You can interpret events differently without it being lies.

I don't know what they hope to gain from telling us that they are at war with us and telling us that they are going to launch nuclear weapons. Part of me is curious as to what they would say if the US came back with "we're worried about you launching nuclear weapons at us, so we are going to launch ours at you first."

I like the comparison to monks. They feel like their way of living is the right way to live. OK. They are welcome to it. After all, as noted in the film you linked, everything we eat is bad for us.

When I say "a lot of truth" I'm referring to the entire hour and a half of the "documentary." As outsiders, their attempts to understand us happen to acutely point out and synthesize a lot of our problems- if inadvertently. To get away with this though, takes a gross amount of hypocrisy or lack of self-introspection. With the North Korean experience largely autocratic, they tend to view autocracy as the given engine of all systems. I'm sure some people would argue that's closer to the truth than anyone would want to admit (calling all you conspiracy folks). As I pointed out above, I generally disagree with this. (And if we are living under a secret autocracy as they theorize, I would argue it's by complicity...rather than force in the case of the DPRK) I'm sure if I put together a list of things they got right vs. gross misrepresentations...the latter would outweigh the former by a significant portion. It doesn't make some of those other points necessarily wrong though.

The gains from their petulant behavior can be numerous. In the past they have gotten weapons, food, fuel, etc... As I mentioned before they can use this to build the (largely) fictional history of the Kim family. Most importantly, they can use it for legitimacy. How can a society living under a cult of asceticism become as important as their chosen status implies? Well, economic expansion or military force. Their system only supports one, so it's the one they are going to be forced to use. Over and over and over. Like most systems they have no desire to be destroyed, but they know that as long as they keep China happy America's military is but a "paper tiger."

[wuapinmon]

If you've not watch that documentary that YOhio posted on CUF about the Nepalese eye doctor doing cataract surgeries in NK, you should.

It's well worth the time investment.

[Katy Lied]

cult of asceticism

I have never heard this term, but it's the best description of Juche I've ever read.

Over and over and over.

That's what puzzles me. The people truly believe that they are currently at war with the US. It is immediate and real for them. When the power goes out nightly, it's not because they lack the infrastructure, it's so that American bombers won't find them in the dark. When the people have a food ration (in the capital) of 5 eggs a month, it's not because their agri system is a bust, it's those evil imperialists blockading their farm products from reaching the population centers. But... for going on 60 years? 60 years and no actual sign of plane wreckage, or sightings of US soldiers, or visible crators caused by US bombs? A child born at the end of hostilities is now 59 years old, with no sign of this war that the museums and the new reports and the newspapers discuss daily. No matter how inculcated the belief system, there's gotta be some doubt, right?

That's why I think tourism is a real eye opener for the people. Even though they are not allowed to talk to tourists, they have to wonder... hmmm... American tourists are coming over here. They must not be at war with us, if they are visiting us. Why would they come to see our country if they hate us and want to wipe us off the map? Why would they be planning to attack us, but still let their citizens come visit?

[GarthUte]

I have never heard this term, but it's the best description of Juche I've ever read.



That's what puzzles me. The people truly believe that they are currently at war with the US. It is immediate and real for them. When the power goes out nightly, it's not because they lack the infrastructure, it's so that American bombers won't find them in the dark. When the people have a food ration (in the capital) of 5 eggs a month, it's not because their agri system is a bust, it's those evil imperialists blockading their farm products from reaching the population centers. But... for going on 60 years? 60 years and no actual sign of plane wreckage, or sightings of US soldiers, or visible crators caused by US bombs? A child born at the end of hostilities is now 59 years old, with no sign of this war that the museums and the new reports and the newspapers discuss daily. No matter how inculcated the belief system, there's gotta be some doubt, right?

That's why I think tourism is a real eye opener for the people. Even though they are not allowed to talk to tourists, they have to wonder... hmmm... American tourists are coming over here. They must not be at war with us, if they are visiting us. Why would they come to see our country if they hate us and want to wipe us off the map? Why would they be planning to attack us, but still let their citizens come visit?

I'm not so sure that the N. Koreans think like we do. They've been brainwashed to believe the propaganda they're fed, so if they see an American tourist, they don't think "they're not at war with us" but "they're here gathering intelligence in order to report back to the US military to find more effective ways to wage war against us".

That's how I see it, anyway.

[Two Utes]

Originally Posted by DanielLaRusso
The sabre-rattling is an important way to keep the Kim personality cult alive. He'll declare war a few times, inevitably get some sort of aid from China or the US, and it will be written in the history books as the mighty Kim Jong Un besting the world powers and saving the DPRK from Western threats. The people will erect a statue, write some songs, weep a little. It's pernicious, but effective at maintaining the system of power they believe is superior to ours.

He went to school in Switzerland so he's fully aware of the power structure on the planet (He also speaks English fluently). In fact, many North Koreans are. Here is some state propaganda that should shed some light on that fact.

I could write a book on here about the DPRK, but I'll spare you all and just leave it there.




Do as I say not as I do:



Hey Kim, where did you get the apple computer? You don't need that stuff.

[SoCalCoug]

I heard an interesting theory about this on the radio recently - this whole saber-rattling thing may be a result of the Dennis Rodman visit. There's video of Kim Jung Un hanging out and being friendly with this huge, tattooed westerner, which could act to weaken him politically. All this stuff is meant to be seen by his people. So in response to this weakness, he creates a huge, chest-thumping show of nuclear threats and specific threats to the great Enemy, America.

It's all for show. They're smart enough to know that they can't win a war against So. Korea/ the U.S.

[Katy Lied]

Just checking in to see if that LaRusso fellow has been posting. LaRussoBump.

[DanielLaRusso]

As soon as North Korea actually does something out-of-character, I'll be back