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Thread: Benevolent Sexism

  1. #31
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Benevolent Sexism

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    While America is being outraged by this memo, in reading an article about Taylor Swift's countersuit of a man she claims groped him, this little tidbit was interjected into the article:

    "Swift wore a black-and-white checked dress with a collar and black tights and carried a beige handbag. She wore bright red lipstick and had her light brown hair pulled back in a bun with full bangs."

    No mention of what any of the men involved with this were wearing or had done with their hair.

    Is it just me or was that a weird thing to include in the article?

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/08/us/tay...ial/index.html


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    It's not just you. It is weird.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-11-2017 at 10:28 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #32
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Benevolent Sexism

    A surprisingly strongly worded column from David Brooks:

    Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/1...m/instapundit/

    The mob that hounded Damore was like the mobs we’ve seen on a lot of college campuses. We all have our theories about why these moral crazes are suddenly so common. I’d say that radical uncertainty about morality, meaning and life in general is producing intense anxiety. Some people embrace moral absolutism in a desperate effort to find solid ground. They feel a rare and comforting sense of moral certainty when they are purging an evil person who has violated one of their sacred taboos.

    Which brings us to Pichai, the supposed grown-up in the room. He could have wrestled with the tension between population-level research and individual experience. He could have stood up for the free flow of information. Instead he joined the mob. He fired Damore and wrote, “To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not O.K.”

    That is a blatantly dishonest characterization of the memo. Damore wrote nothing like that about his Google colleagues. Either Pichai is unprepared to understand the research (unlikely), is not capable of handling complex data flows (a bad trait in a C.E.O.) or was simply too afraid to stand up to a mob.

    Regardless which weakness applies, this episode suggests he should seek a nonleadership position. We are at a moment when mobs on the left and the right ignore evidence and destroy scapegoats. That’s when we need good leaders most.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-11-2017 at 10:34 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    A surprisingly strongly worded column from David Brooks:

    Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/1...m/instapundit/


    Good stuff. Don't know the background of the author.


    Law firms have some of the same issues as the tech business when it comes to gender issues. For years now, I've been of the opinion that women leave the private practice of law for a number of reasons, but a significant reason is they don't wrap themselves up in the "status" of the job, have more balance in their life and decide fuck this, I'm not going to deal with this shit for the rest of my life. Men do that too. It seems more women do it.

    I'm saying some of the same things Damore is saying. It's frightening to me that my opinions about this topic (which actually IMO have a lot of merit) would subject me to being fired.

    The author's right. The mobs on both sides are getting out of hand. The US is becoming a place that I no longer understand.

  4. #34
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Where political correctness can lead.

    https://youtu.be/gHZJsMfukQY

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #35
    My wife follows the "Sistas in Zion", a couple of fun - and devout - African American Mormon women. She forwarded this post from this morning, on FB, after yesterday's Charlottesville "uprising":

    "It's Sunday morning and I've been up all night. I'm having a dilemma. A struggle! For the first time in my life I fear taking my child to a LDS church. My church! Her church! The only church she's ever belonged to tho not my ward. It is/would be my daughters ward while she's at school. Nonetheless it's an LDS church. It's our church! I've always taught my children that the LDS church is their home base and It's a safe place for them. However yesterday as I watched what was ha...ppening in Charlottesville VA it hit me that one of my RS sisters played a role in the planning of and helped promote such a hateful event. The realization that some of the men who attended the most recent Mormon "alt-right/alt-white" conference whose faces were covered by Pepe the Frog stickers could possibly be in leadership positions (bishops/stake president's throughout the church) has left me feeling a different type of fear as a parent. The fear of placing my child in physical and spiritual danger is now a reality. I can not suffer my child "Mormonism" over Christianity. I can not suffer my child (children) religion over personal relationship with God. I've always taught my children we are Christians that read & believe in the Book of Mormon. However today the fear and reality of the racism that still exist in Mormon wards has me contemplating my options. Do I take my daughter into a space where she is one or very few in numbers (color, her race/color is the first thing people will hear, not with their ears but their eyes.) and hope the deafening silence coming from Salt Lake and even her own home ward regarding the alt-white movement is limited to SLC/Provo/ or Utah communities? Or do I take her to the local black church and show her where to go for self-care when her church family can't speak to her pain and (or) refuse to stand with her against racism? The thought of me placing my daughter in spiritual danger amongst people I've always taught her were safe is paralyzing and for the first time in my life I fear my church community outside of my church (ward) and familiar church family. Because where I come from if you see something (wrong) you say something (right) or do something to correct the wrong. It's said that silence is agreement, and from where I'm sitting, the silence from the podium/pulpit is frightening and I can only hope it doesn't mean silent agreement. ��Tamu

    PS: I find myself asking the same question that Mama Jane (Jane Elizabeth Manning James) asked: "Is there no blessings for me?" I know I'm not alone in my search for peace & blessings. Please pray for me/us as we'll pray for you & yours."




    I have no idea how solid her worry is that LDS men were part of the Alt-Right demonstration - maybe she's having a bad morning, maybe some of her research into the past ("Mama Jane") is on her mind, sounds like maybe her daughter goes to UVa... but I'm glad she's speaking up and prompting the many reactions from current LDS folks on FB, which are uniformly supportive.

    Way back in the past century, I used to wonder "What would it be like to be in their shoes? What exactly did they *DO* to not deserve the priesthood or temple blessings?" We had exactly zero black members in Bountiful where I grew up, so there was no outpouring of support, etc. Today the greater diversity in the church prompts better, more inclusive thinking (it seems to me).

  6. #36
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    That's impressively direct and specific.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #37

    Norwegian documentary on Gender Equality

    The documentary is fascinating:



    Here's an article talking about it:

    http://nationalpost.com/opinion/barb...b-a16d271223db

    But in Norway, something happened in 2011 that removed the mental blinkers. It may have contributed to the Nordic Council of Ministers’ (a regional inter-governmental co-operation consisting of Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Iceland) decision to defund the NIKK Nordic Gender Institute, the allegedly scientific greenhouse where social and educational gender policies were seeded and nurtured, making the Nordic countries the most “gender sensitive” societies in the world ... The “something” that shook their world? A 2011 television documentary broadcast by Norwegian State Television. Made by popular satirical comedian Harald Elia (who also holds a degree in social sciences), “Hjernevask—Norwegian for “Brainwashing” exposed the unscientific character of the NIKK and its research.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    The documentary is fascinating:



    Here's an article talking about it:

    http://nationalpost.com/opinion/barb...b-a16d271223db
    So a very close friend of mine and I like to debate. It is particularly fun because we know each other well, can push buttons of each other and play the devil advocate while not starting WWIII.

    She has long been a proponent that boys and girls are a product of nurture. She has had three boys and has presented them with various opportunities across the traditional gender spectrum including for them trucks and dolls, etc. Her boys have gravitated towards traditional gender activities which I like to tease her about. To her credit they are very well rounded and have been exposed to a great deal of cultural things.

    A common friend of ours recently came out as trans and she desperately wanted to know my thoughts. Her husband and her had a very heated debate on this with lots of hurt feelings. I told her the bottom line for me is my understanding of gender dysphoria was limited but that the science was still out on that particular subject and so it was hard to have a conclusion other than I feel strongly that the great commandments to love thy neighbor was what I had to do. She religiously is agnostic, but grew up LDS.

    So this we discussed some more and I teasingly said, "Well you know what I think when it comes to children: Boys should play with trucks, girls should play with dolls. Boys should like to hunt, girls should like to do pretty things. Boys wear pants and girls wear dresses and have long hair and wear makeup. Boys like blue and red and girls like pink." This of course made her upset (or as upset when we are jokingly debating).

    So then I teased again, "Okay, so I am admittedly ignorant on the subject, but why when a person feels they are another gender it is manifested in those 'antiquated' gender norms I just said. Does femininity really have to do with hair and makeup and wearing dresses? Conversely why short hair for men etc. Just a couple of centuries ago pink was a masculine color."

    This was intended to make her mad and it did. She didn't like that line of questions but also didn't have answers.

    I don't understand gender issues well I know and admit that. However it seems that gender dysphoria is manifest in social constructs rather than what is actual gender? I dunno.

    I'm sure many of you better educated on the subject can enlighten me. I haven't found anything yet on the internet that addresses that but hope to learn more.

    In the meantime I'll continue to tease my friend.


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  9. #39
    My daughter lives in Newbury Park, Ca, a suburb of Thousand Oaks. She is a young mother of 3 and recently attended a training for some type of exercise class. She has a friend in another Stake in Southern California who is certified and holds free classes several times a week at the local LDS Ward building. My daughter submitted a request to use the cultural hall in her building several mornings a week to conduct a class. She was contacted by a High Council member who indicated that they were discussing her request, but that the Stake President had a number of reservations about it. She has been waiting 7 weeks to hear back. This seems like blatant sexism to me. If her request is denied, where does she take her complaint.

    This same Stake President is pretty new and has required that all the crusts be cut from sacrament bread so that it is pure.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    This same Stake President is pretty new and has required that all the crusts be cut from sacrament bread so that it is pure.
    I apologize for completely ignoring the meat of your post, but whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    This same Stake President is pretty new and has required that all the crusts be cut from sacrament bread so that it is pure.
    Bwahahahaha. That is awesome! The dude sounds like a real peach.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    My daughter lives in Newbury Park, Ca, a suburb of Thousand Oaks. She is a young mother of 3 and recently attended a training for some type of exercise class. She has a friend in another Stake in Southern California who is certified and holds free classes several times a week at the local LDS Ward building. My daughter submitted a request to use the cultural hall in her building several mornings a week to conduct a class. She was contacted by a High Council member who indicated that they were discussing her request, but that the Stake President had a number of reservations about it. She has been waiting 7 weeks to hear back. This seems like blatant sexism to me. If her request is denied, where does she take her complaint.

    This same Stake President is pretty new and has required that all the crusts be cut from sacrament bread so that it is pure.
    Next week: All water should be poured into the cups through a Brita filter.

    To answer your real concern, there is a good chance that if he is a new stake president he is probably reeling a bit with the work load and this (relatively) minor request may have fallen through the cracks. (But then again, he apparently has time to worry about bread crusts, so...) I'd bug the HC or the Stake President directly about it if I were her.

    Now... what may be giving them pause is that holding free classes could POTENTIALLY be in a gray area when it comes to approved uses of church facilities. Not saying this is the case with your daughter or whatever... But they aren't supposed to be used for promotional purposes, etc. HB 2 21.2.2 says among things prohibited: "Buying, selling, or promoting products, services, publications, or creative works or demonstrating wares."

    So if it was one of those things like, "Hey, this class is free, but if you want more, come to my class at XYZ gym on MWF..." sort of a thing.

    So that would be my question, or why something might need to be reviewed, "Is this a class for fun, or is this a class someone is using to promote their other busienss?" Now if it is like in my ward, where women just get together regularly and work out - that shouldn't be a problem.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Next week: All water should be poured into the cups through a Brita filter.

    To answer your real concern, there is a good chance that if he is a new stake president he is probably reeling a bit with the work load and this (relatively) minor request may have fallen through the cracks. (But then again, he apparently has time to worry about bread crusts, so...) I'd bug the HC or the Stake President directly about it if I were her.

    Now... what may be giving them pause is that holding free classes could POTENTIALLY be in a gray area when it comes to approved uses of church facilities. Not saying this is the case with your daughter or whatever... But they aren't supposed to be used for promotional purposes, etc. HB 2 21.2.2 says among things prohibited: "Buying, selling, or promoting products, services, publications, or creative works or demonstrating wares."

    So if it was one of those things like, "Hey, this class is free, but if you want more, come to my class at XYZ gym on MWF..." sort of a thing.

    So that would be my question, or why something might need to be reviewed, "Is this a class for fun, or is this a class someone is using to promote their other busienss?" Now if it is like in my ward, where women just get together regularly and work out - that shouldn't be a problem.
    She isn't promoting anything. They have come up with all sorts of stuff. Concerned about the music used - she screens it. Worried about liability issues - what about late night pickup basketball games. Worried about improper attire.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    She isn't promoting anything. They have come up with all sorts of stuff. Concerned about the music used - she screens it. Worried about liability issues - what about late night pickup basketball games. Worried about improper attire.
    Oh, good grief.


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  15. #45
    I read this and I am reminded of the story ive shared here several times where i was the stake officials coordinator and a man told me after a game that I was the "biggest @#$%^& joke" he had ever met, because I didn't allow him to fight a man in his 70's. If Church ball is sanctioned and supported, I can't fathom not allowing a group of women to get together to exercise.

  16. #46
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    She isn't promoting anything. They have come up with all sorts of stuff. Concerned about the music used - she screens it. Worried about liability issues - what about late night pickup basketball games. Worried about improper attire.
    Our ward has a morning exercise class two or three days a week, mid morning. I think this is been going on in every ward I’ve ever been a member of in my adult life.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    So a very close friend of mine and I like to debate. It is particularly fun because we know each other well, can push buttons of each other and play the devil advocate while not starting WWIII.

    She has long been a proponent that boys and girls are a product of nurture. She has had three boys and has presented them with various opportunities across the traditional gender spectrum including for them trucks and dolls, etc. Her boys have gravitated towards traditional gender activities which I like to tease her about. To her credit they are very well rounded and have been exposed to a great deal of cultural things.

    A common friend of ours recently came out as trans and she desperately wanted to know my thoughts. Her husband and her had a very heated debate on this with lots of hurt feelings. I told her the bottom line for me is my understanding of gender dysphoria was limited but that the science was still out on that particular subject and so it was hard to have a conclusion other than I feel strongly that the great commandments to love thy neighbor was what I had to do. She religiously is agnostic, but grew up LDS.

    So this we discussed some more and I teasingly said, "Well you know what I think when it comes to children: Boys should play with trucks, girls should play with dolls. Boys should like to hunt, girls should like to do pretty things. Boys wear pants and girls wear dresses and have long hair and wear makeup. Boys like blue and red and girls like pink." This of course made her upset (or as upset when we are jokingly debating).

    So then I teased again, "Okay, so I am admittedly ignorant on the subject, but why when a person feels they are another gender it is manifested in those 'antiquated' gender norms I just said. Does femininity really have to do with hair and makeup and wearing dresses? Conversely why short hair for men etc. Just a couple of centuries ago pink was a masculine color."

    This was intended to make her mad and it did. She didn't like that line of questions but also didn't have answers.

    I don't understand gender issues well I know and admit that. However it seems that gender dysphoria is manifest in social constructs rather than what is actual gender? I dunno.

    I'm sure many of you better educated on the subject can enlighten me. I haven't found anything yet on the internet that addresses that but hope to learn more.

    In the meantime I'll continue to tease my friend.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    This doesn’t make sense. Your point can only be that gender is social construct. So I guess your friend won.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    This doesn’t make sense. Your point can only be that gender is social construct. So I guess your friend won.
    Are you really dredging up posts from a year and a half ago?


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  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Our ward has a morning exercise class two or three days a week, mid morning. I think this is been going on in every ward I’ve ever been a member of in my adult life.
    I agree - what is her recourse if her Stake President says no. The Stake RS President is even on board with the class as a Stake RS activity and the guy still won't make a decision.

  20. #50
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Benevolent Sexism

    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I agree - what is her recourse if her Stake President says no. The Stake RS President is even on board with the class as a Stake RS activity and the guy still won't make a decision.
    I’m not sure there is much recourse, if any at all. She might have to simply grin and bear it, or maybe wait a while and approach him again, or keep bugging him until he agrees. All of those would be appropriate responses, I believe. The SP might simply need more education about what is proposed.

    We once had a stake president in Los Angeles who because of certain personality quirks, was a trial for many. He was a dedicated, hard-working man and did his best. I’ve known him almost my whole life, and you know his family too. In the years that have passed, I decided that he simply represented a hard time we all had to get through. Everyone seemed to get past it, even those who were quite bent out of shape at him during his time as the stake president. I hope so, anyway.

    I’m not offering this information to be helpful, just making an observation. Based on what you’ve told us, I do not understand what is motivating this type of behavior — there are so many other things for priesthood leaders to worry about....
    Last edited by LA Ute; 01-27-2019 at 07:34 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Are you really dredging up posts from a year and a half ago?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I hope that in that time you’ve become more rational and progressive about gender.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

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