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Thread: The Official Civil War Thread

  1. #61
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Official Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    I see the Lenin statue as a cool memento celebrating the fall of the USSR.
    Insert in that sentence "Confederate" instead of "Lenin" and "defeat of the Confederacy" instead of "the fall of the USSR" and you've got an argument -- disingenuous as it is -- for leaving up the memorials to Confederate heroes. (You're not disingenuous.)
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-20-2017 at 03:42 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #62
    I see the Lenin statue more like the Walther PPK and Nazi flag my grandfather took from an SS officer after blowing up his Panzer tank and pulling the crew to safety. It is a war trophy brought to this country by a private citizen, and not anything more.

    The Robert E Lee statue was erected in 1920 to remind black GIs returning from the war that they were still second fucking class citizens in the country they just defended overseas.

  3. #63
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Insert in that sentence "Confederate" instead of "Lenin" and "defeat of the Confederacy" instead of "the fall of the USSR" and you've got an argument -- disingenuous as it is -- for leaving up the memorials to Confederate heroes. (You're not disingenuous.)
    Except that the Lenin statue is (from what I gather), kept around for the purposes of mockery. I don't see that with the Confederate ones.

  4. #64
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Official Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    Except that the Lenin statue is (from what I gather), kept around for the purposes of mockery. I don't see that with the Confederate ones.
    If so, that makes it better, IMO. Still, the statue portrays Lenin in a very heroic pose and is located in a very lefty part of a very liberal city. Color me a little skeptical. And in terms of pure villainy and murdererous impact on the world, General Lee is not even in the same universe as Lenin. I'd still rather see both of them in a museum in any place where people have to look at them while walking by.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-21-2017 at 12:36 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    If so, that makes it better, IMO. Still, the statue portrays Lenin in a very heroic pose and is located in a very lefty part of a very liberal city. Color me a little skeptical. And in terms of pure villainy and murdererous impact on the world, General Lee is not even in the same universe as Lenin. I'd still rather see both of them in a museum in any place where people have to look at them while walking by.

    Lenin was nothing short of a murderous genocidal maniac responsible for millions of deaths of innocent people, and am doubtful that the living descendants of those starved/killed under his and Stalins regime are amused by the statue, even when dressed in a skirt. Having said that, it's a private statue on private land, and, so as far as I'm concerned it's a free speech issue -- game, set and match for the owner of the statue. Plus, the local community doesn't seem too concerned about it, and these decisions when necessary should largely be made at the local level.

    However, the liberal mayor of Seattle has recently found a conscience and has become empathetic to the Russian immigrants in his city and has called for the removal of the statue.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  6. #66
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Official Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Lenin was nothing short of a murderous genocidal maniac responsible for millions of deaths of innocent people, and am doubtful that the living descendants of those starved/killed under his and Stalins regime are amused by the statue, even when dressed in a skirt. Having said that, it's a private statue on private land, and, so as far as I'm concerned it's a free speech issue -- game, set and match for the owner of the statue. Plus, the local community doesn't seem too concerned about it, and these decisions when necessary should largely be made at the local level.

    However, the liberal mayor of Seattle has recently found a conscience and has become empathetic to the Russian immigrants in his city and has called for the removal of the statue.
    I agree with you on the private land part of this, but I think it would be a nice gesture if the city bought the statue and moved it to a museum. To me the issue is, Whom do we honor? Maybe the intention here is not to honor Lenin, but it's ambiguous. With Lee and his fellow Confederate heroes, there's no question they are being honored in a big way, with hundreds of monuments, many built during Jim Crow; and quite a few in states that were not even part of the Confederacy.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-22-2017 at 09:39 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #67
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Official Civil War Thread

    Interesting Associated Press piece that appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune this morning.

    Civil War lessons often depend on where the classroom is

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-wo...-classroom-is/

    This is the plaque at the Texas state capitol that is mentioned in the article:



    For those who are having a hard time reading the words in the photo, it was dedicated in 1959 by the Texas Chapter of the Children of the Confederacy and reads, in part: “We, therefore, pledge ourselves to preserve pure ideals to study and teach the truths of history (one of the most important of which is that the war between the states was not a rebellion, nor was its underlying cause to sustain slavery).”

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #68
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Now things are getting ridiculous.

    Traveler, USC's mascot, comes under scrutiny for having a name similar to Robert E. Lee's horse

    BY the way, isn't the dog Tirebiter their official mascot?
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-22-2017 at 11:32 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Now things are getting ridiculous.

    Traveler, USC's mascot, comes under scrutiny for having a name similar to Robert E. Lee's horse

    BY the way, isn't the dog Tirebiter their official mascot?

    Come on LAUte, you need to bring your A-game. Here's one for you.....

    Asian ESPN announcer reassigned from the UVA/College of W&M football game because his name is....wait for it.....Robert Lee. There's just no possible way this is true since only conservative outlets are reporting. I'm 99 percent sure the last laugh will be on me, but, here it is........

    https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/m...ending-idiots/

    http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...rals-name.html

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...rsity-virgini/

    http://www.richmond.com/sports/colle...0f035df3d.html
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  10. #70
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Come on LAUte, you need to bring your A-game. Here's one for you.....

    Asian ESPN announcer reassigned from the UVA/College of W&M football game because his name is....wait for it.....Robert Lee. There's just no possible way this is true since only conservative outlets are reporting. I'm 99 percent sure the last laugh will be on me, but, here it is........

    https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/m...ending-idiots/

    http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...rals-name.html

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...rsity-virgini/

    http://www.richmond.com/sports/colle...0f035df3d.html
    I heard he is Asian. We are into absurdity now.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #71
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Mothball the Confederate Monuments

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...uments-museums

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #72
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post

    There's no words for this -- at least no words that would make any sense of it. I guess this is the America we're becoming. Beyond bizarre.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  14. #74
    ESPN is making a name for itself with stupid political statements... however do we know the announcer Robert Lee himself didn't ask to be reassigned from that game in Virginia knowing that nutcases abound and the tyranny of the internet masses might find cause to mess with his life? I gotta say if I were in his shoes it might be a concern for me. ESPN made it sound on their release that all parties agreed including him. Who knows.

    However if that was the thinking I am okay with it. When the car driver in Charlottesville was misidentified as someone else at first, that person had to go into hiding as internet fools began harassing him.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #75
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    ESPN is making a name for itself with stupid political statements... however do we know the announcer Robert Lee himself didn't ask to be reassigned from that game in Virginia knowing that nutcases abound and the tyranny of the internet masses might find cause to mess with his life? I gotta say if I were in his shoes it might be a concern for me. ESPN made it sound on their release that all parties agreed including him. Who knows.

    However if that was the thinking I am okay with it. When the car driver in Charlottesville was misidentified as someone else at first, that person had to go into hiding as internet fools began harassing him.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    This one doesn't bother me that much, although it's sad. What I wonder is why ESPN had to say anything about the change? Couldn't this have been done quietly?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This one doesn't bother me that much, although it's sad. What I wonder is why ESPN had to say anything about the change? Couldn't this have been done quietly?
    It reminds me of when Bronco would announce he is not a candidate for certain jobs. Dude, nobody thought you were.

  17. #77
    This guy just got out of watching UVa vs William & Mary. One of the better days of his broadcasting career.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This guy just got out of watching UVa vs William & Mary. One of the better days of his broadcasting career.
    "Did you know that Bronco lived in an RV when he first got here?.....ok, I'm out of interesting facts about the guy."
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  19. #79
    This article came out after the Charleston church shooting: https://medium.com/marc-ambinder/the...g-773357dbc702

    Notables:

    - the States Rights Party in Virginia in 1948 adopted the Confederate Flag (CF) after the Democratic Party's platform became more progressive on civil rights, right around when Harry Truman integrated the military.

    - Georgia adopted their own design of the CF to protest Brown vs Board of Education, in 1956

    - South Carolina flew the CF over the State Capitol in 1962, after George Wallace raised it on grounds of the legislature in Alabama, protesting efforts to more aggressively integrate schools in the South.

    Yep, the Confederacy was all about commerce and States Rights.

  20. #80
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Official Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    This article came out after the Charleston church shooting: https://medium.com/marc-ambinder/the...g-773357dbc702

    Notables:

    - the States Rights Party in Virginia in 1948 adopted the Confederate Flag (CF) after the Democratic Party's platform became more progressive on civil rights, right around when Harry Truman integrated the military.

    - Georgia adopted their own design of the CF to protest Brown vs Board of Education, in 1956

    - South Carolina flew the CF over the State Capitol in 1962, after George Wallace raised it on grounds of the legislature in Alabama, protesting efforts to more aggressively integrate schools in the South.

    Yep, the Confederacy was all about commerce and States Rights.
    Oh come now. It was just a coincidence that they were all slave states. Correlation is not causation, you know.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #81
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  22. #82

    Yes, interesting. I'd never heard of PragerU but is clearly right leaning. Did you happen to watch any of the other offerings?: College Made Me a Conservative, Taxes Are Killing Small Businesses, Government Can't Fix Healthcare, Black Millennial Female & Conservative, Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings, The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party......and many others. Quite entertaining.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Yes, interesting. I'd never heard of PragerU but is clearly right leaning. Did you happen to watch any of the other offerings?: College Made Me a Conservative, Taxes Are Killing Small Businesses, Government Can't Fix Healthcare, Black Millennial Female & Conservative, Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings, The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party......and many others. Quite entertaining.
    I've seen a lot of them. Prager himself seems very wise inn my opinion

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  24. #84
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #85

  26. #86
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Here's a contrary view. I disagree with his suggestion as to what conservatives should do.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ld-let-them-be

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #87
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Interesting view from a New Yorker writer:

    Things to Think About When Taking Down Statues

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...g-down-statues

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #88
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I think this writer deals perfectly with the issue of honoring confederate heroes.

    Seeing the Confederacy Clear

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...uments-and-all

    I am further told that, in removing monuments, people are “erasing history” or “eradicating history.” Sometimes they are, I think, and that is to be opposed. But sometimes they are doing something else. Remember: Some monuments, or memorials, are meant to record history; others are meant to honor the person being depicted.
    Exactly.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #89
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Interesting piece:

    5 Causes of the Civil War (Besides Slavery)

    http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/b...esides-slavery

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #90
    On that note, here is an Eric Foner op-ed yesterday on lee specifically and the causes of the civil war generally. Makes the point that the historical interpretations of "other causes" of the war in part were designed to enoble the southern cause and whitewash the defense of slavery. FWIW.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/b...l?mcubz=1&_r=0

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