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Thread: With the news that the NSA is gathering data from Verizon...

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, NSA surveillance of international communications (telephone) has yielded information to block terrorism attempts. In addition, it's a machine/computer program reading your e-mail, not a person. This somehow makes it less invasive in my mind.

    On the other hand, it's always dicey to spy on US citizens (this is essentially what's going on). I know that the internet age has spawned some new ethical concerns, since it's hard to show decisively that e-mail correspondence is truly international (and therefore free-game for NSA scrutiny). At the very least, I think there should be some additional transparency about how much information these private companies are harvesting.

    Besides, any decent terrorist knows better than to send sensitive information via e-mail. They just share a single e-mail account and convey all of their communication via saved drafts (often in white font that won't show up on screen-shots). This way, nothing is ever "sent" and is less likely to be intercepted.

    Duh.
    In today's world with the internet, everything we post, every photo we upload, etc. is out there forever for anyone who has the capability and resources to find. The problem is that unlike individuals, the government has unlimited resources to take a look at what everyone is doing, which makes the government more likely to use that info out there against citizens than any individual or even corporation. Granted, corporations have gathered a ton of info about all of us, but they don't have the authority to punish anyone with accusations of law breaking.

    I'd rather the government stay out of my personal business, but if it's going to do it, I want absolute transparency about what it is gathering and how much it has. After all, if I have nothing to hide, neither does the government.
    "Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." - Red Smith

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post

    So yes, I believe in the rule of law the checks and balances in our system. It's the bedrock of the Constitution. I believe.
    Even if I grant to you that nothing nefarious is currently going on, and I may even be willing to concede that. With this type of power I am telling you it is only a matter of time before the situation I describe happens. Its human nature. Its the nature of governments. Despite Checks and Balances. It is going to happen.
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  3. #63
    Last edited by Dawminator; 06-13-2013 at 05:59 PM.
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  4. #64
    I can't help but wonder how many people would have a different view on this if Bush were president....some would say its okay...others would say its scary. One of the problems with parties I guess.
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  5. #65
    Last edited by Dawminator; 06-13-2013 at 06:14 PM.
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawminator View Post
    I can't help but wonder how many people would have a different view on this if Bush were president....some would say its okay...others would say its scary. One of the problems with parties I guess.
    They already have, back in 2006-7. The partisanship of it is frustrating. Personally, I blame The Patriot Act for a good chunk of this. And it was overwhelmingly passed by both chambers.
    “Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.”
    André Gide

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    They already have, back in 2006-7. The partisanship of it is frustrating. Personally, I blame The Patriot Act for a good chunk of this. And it was overwhelmingly passed by both chambers.
    Read my links...That is what I was getting at with my question.

    And Kudos to Garth for consistency
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawminator View Post
    I can't help but wonder how many people would have a different view on this if Bush were president....some would say its okay...others would say its scary. One of the problems with parties I guess.
    For the record, I've never been a Bush fan and would be just as ticked about it if it had come out during his administration that this was happening. Of course, it really doesn't matter, as Obama is the POTUS and has been for the last 4 1/2 years, so his is the administration that is going to take the heat for this. And rightfully so.
    "Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." - Red Smith

  9. #69
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  10. #70
    It seems like I'm in the minority, but to me, this seems like a much, much bigger deal than the NSA stuff.

  11. #71
    I don't think you can look at any of these stories in a vacuum
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  12. #72
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I like Krauthammer's take:

    Their View: Pushing the envelope, NSA-style


    Thirty-five years ago in United States v. Choate, the courts ruled that the Postal Service may record "mail cover," i.e., what's written on the outside of an envelope — the addresses of sender and receiver. The National Security Agency's recording of U.S. phone data does basically that with the telephone. It records who is calling whom — the outside of the envelope, as it were. The content of the conversation, however, is like the letter inside the envelope. It may not be opened without a court order.

    The constitutional basis for this is simple: The Fourth Amendment protects against "unreasonable searches and seizures" and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for what's written on an envelope. It's dropped in a public mailbox, read by workers at the collection center and read once again by the letter carrier. It's already openly been shared, much as your phone records are shared with, recorded by, and (e)mailed back to you by a third party, namely the phone company.

    Indeed, in 1979 the Supreme Court (Smith v. Maryland) made the point directly regarding the telephone: The expectation of privacy applies to the content of a call, not its record. There is therefore nothing constitutionally offensive about the newly revealed NSA data-mining program that seeks to identify terrorist networks through telephone-log pattern recognition....

    The problem here is not constitutionality. It's practicality. Legally this is fairly straightforward. But between intent and execution lies a shadow — the human factor, the possibility of abuse. And because of the scope and power of the NSA, any abuse would have major consequences for civil liberties.

    The real issue is safeguards. We could start by asking how an Edward Snowden, undereducated, newly employed, rootless and grandiose, could have been given such access and power. We need a toughening of both congressional oversight and judicial review, perhaps even some independent outside scrutiny. Plus periodic legislative revision — say, reauthorization every four years — in the light of efficacy of the safeguards and the nature of the external threat.

    The object is not to abolish these vital programs. It's to fix them. Not exactly easy to do amid the current state of national agitation — provoked largely because such intrusive programs require a measure of trust in government and this administration has forfeited that trust amid an unfolding series of scandals and a basic problem with truth-telling. There are nonetheless two other reasons these revelations have sparked such anxiety. Every spying program is a compromise between liberty and security. Yet here is a president who campaigned on the proposition that he would transcend such pedestrian considerations. "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals," he declared in his first inaugural address, no less. When caught with his hand on your phone data, however, President Obama offered this defense: "You can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy. ... We're going to have to make some choices as a society." So it wasn't such a false choice after all, was it, Mr. President?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #73


    She has suspected this for quite some time and has been rather vigilant in her reporting about Fast and Furious and Benghazi. Is there anyone who thinks this is a coincidence?

    You can listen to her comment about her suspicion about something going on with her computers in the youtube video in the link I provided.
    "Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." - Red Smith

  14. #74
    All the things my generation was taught about the evilness of Russia and China and the lack of freedom and the complete gov't control, yea, that's us now. Sad days indeed

    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    It seems like I'm in the minority, but to me, this seems like a much, much bigger deal than the NSA stuff.
    A Utah Man am I

  15. #75
    It's not often that I get to join hands with BOTH Dawn-the-animator and Garth!


  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Yikes, I like his take also. What's this world coming to?

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by codered View Post
    All the things my generation was taught about the evilness of Russia and China and the lack of freedom and the complete gov't control, yea, that's us now. Sad days indeed
    Outrageous claims require solid substantiation. Please cite one instance in our country that is even vaguely similar to the gulags, the interrogations at Lubyanka, or the Cultural Revolution.

    Hyperbole, extravagant exaggeration, does not bolster your credibility.

  18. #78
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post
    Yikes, I like his take also. What's this world coming to?
    It's this website. It has good kum-ba-yah karma. Or maybe it's just a wise old codger thing.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's this website. It has good kum-ba-yah karma. Or maybe it's just a wise old codger thing.
    Holy crap. Me too. pass the marshmellows, graham crackers and chocolate.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post
    Outrageous claims require solid substantiation. Please cite one instance in our country that is even vaguely similar to the gulags, the interrogations at Lubyanka, or the Cultural Revolution.

    Hyperbole, extravagant exaggeration, does not bolster your credibility.
    Just in this instance, or generally? The CIA uses secret prisons. Guantanamo (whatever happened to the outrage over that?). The use of torture. I get that we are eternally fighting for our way of life, it's just that we are losing our way. That deterioration of principles and values doesn't't happen overnight. We gradually let it slip away if we relax our vigilance.
    "You can whip me. You can beat me, and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post
    Outrageous claims require solid substantiation. Please cite one instance in our country that is even vaguely similar to the gulags, the interrogations at Lubyanka, or the Cultural Revolution.

    Hyperbole, extravagant exaggeration, does not bolster your credibility.
    The Japanese internment camps during WW2...or forced sterilizations during the 1920s.

    Not trying to be a jerk Pangloss, but why has your opinion changed from the last link I posted above when you were expressed fears and worries over the NSA when Bush was president and now?
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawminator View Post
    The Japanese internment camps during WW2...or forced sterilizations during the 1920s.

    Not trying to be a jerk Pangloss, but why has your opinion changed from the last link I posted above when you were expressed fears and worries over the NSA when Bush was president and now?
    I absolutely support oversight, checks & balances and limits on the intelligence community. Today's technology gives an organization like the NSA incredible potential for good and harm. That said, the Snowden affair and the press coverage of it puckers me up. The guy harmed our country's national security and he's described as a whistle-blower hero.

    With your bringing up 80 and 70 year ago examples, maybe I misunderstood where you were going. I thought you were saying the events over the last decade or less were the events indicating our decline. Even then, comparing anything in US history with the Cultural Revolution or the Stalinist purges is way off base. The Japanese internment camps were a dreadful stain on the country's history - but they weren't gulag slave labor camps.

    cheers

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post
    I absolutely support oversight, checks & balances and limits on the intelligence community. Today's technology gives an organization like the NSA incredible potential for good and harm. That said, the Snowden affair and the press coverage of it puckers me up. The guy harmed our country's national security and he's described as a whistle-blower hero.

    With your bringing up 80 and 70 year ago examples, maybe I misunderstood where you were going. I thought you were saying the events over the last decade or less were the events indicating our decline. Even then, comparing anything in US history with the Cultural Revolution or the Stalinist purges is way off base. The Japanese internment camps were a dreadful stain on the country's history - but they weren't gulag slave labor camps.

    cheers
    Once again (for this subject at least) I'm with Pangloss 100%.

  24. #84
    The whole point of my post wasn't comparing our gov't actions to slave labor camps, etc, but I was pointing out that all the 'negative' things we were taught about that 'proved' that the USA's Gov't was in comparison, so much better that those of the China's and Russia's of the world, are in fact now in existence here. The examples of our gov't trying to take complete control over our lives show that. Gun Control, spying on innocent civilians, health care mandates, etc... The list goes on and on. I read an article yesterday of how the gov't is trying to force LDS canneries out of business. I didn't have time to verify the accuracy of said article, but sadly, at this point, I wouldn't doubt it.

    Of course it's all done in the name of protecting us from ourselves, right? Ironically history has shown, almost without exception, that every horrible, nasty, evil gov't the world has ever faced all started out in similar fashions. We have 20/20 hind sight that allows us to see that these were truly evil men, but their country men almost always found them favorable in the beginning, when they felt like those leaders were protecting them from harms way. It's a slippery slope. Regardless of your political leanings you surely have to see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post
    I absolutely support oversight, checks & balances and limits on the intelligence community. Today's technology gives an organization like the NSA incredible potential for good and harm. That said, the Snowden affair and the press coverage of it puckers me up. The guy harmed our country's national security and he's described as a whistle-blower hero.

    With your bringing up 80 and 70 year ago examples, maybe I misunderstood where you were going. I thought you were saying the events over the last decade or less were the events indicating our decline. Even then, comparing anything in US history with the Cultural Revolution or the Stalinist purges is way off base. The Japanese internment camps were a dreadful stain on the country's history - but they weren't gulag slave labor camps.

    cheers
    A Utah Man am I

  25. #85
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Once again (for this subject at least) I'm with Pangloss 100%.
    So do I. The fabric of the space-time continuum continues to tear. Lol.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by codered View Post
    The whole point of my post wasn't comparing our gov't actions to slave labor camps, etc, but I was pointing out that all the 'negative' things we were taught about that 'proved' that the USA's Gov't was in comparison, so much better that those of the China's and Russia's of the world, are in fact now in existence here. The examples of our gov't trying to take complete control over our lives show that. Gun Control, spying on innocent civilians, health care mandates, etc... The list goes on and on. I read an article yesterday of how the gov't is trying to force LDS canneries out of business. I didn't have time to verify the accuracy of said article, but sadly, at this point, I wouldn't doubt it.

    Of course it's all done in the name of protecting us from ourselves, right? Ironically history has shown, almost without exception, that every horrible, nasty, evil gov't the world has ever faced all started out in similar fashions. We have 20/20 hind sight that allows us to see that these were truly evil men, but their country men almost always found them favorable in the beginning, when they felt like those leaders were protecting them from harms way. It's a slippery slope. Regardless of your political leanings you surely have to see that.
    Unlike others, I agree 100% with codered here. He's correct when he points out that the US government abuses of today is very similar than those of the Soviet Union when the Kremlin was spying on the citizens and controlling behavior. History has shown again and again that governments eventually get so corrupt that they decide that their job is to no longer allow citizens to make the decisions that affect their own lives. That's where we're headed and if we decide that we're fine with a little bit of spying for the sake of safety, then we'll get there sooner rather than later.

    I've also heard about the LDS canneries east of the Mississippi being shut down, but haven't found anything that verifies it, but it wouldn't surprise me if it happens because this administration doesn't believe in the citizenry being self sufficient.
    "Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." - Red Smith

  27. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    So do I. The fabric of the space-time continuum continues to tear. Lol.
    I had a TIA episode a few weeks ago. They did a bunch of tests and didn't find any damage. I'm wondering if it really did break (or fix) something.

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by GarthUte View Post
    Unlike others, I agree 100% with codered here. He's correct when he points out that the US government abuses of today is very similar than those of the Soviet Union when the Kremlin was spying on the citizens and controlling behavior. ...
    Maybe I'm just an old fashioned conservative patriot with an un-abiding faith in the good ol' U.S. of A

    Well, not really. The one institution I believe makes our country different is the rule of law. The old Soviet & Chinese Communitsts also had codified judicial systems but the institutions were a joke. Neither had a Mayberry vs Madison decision that took and judicial decisions were little more than a rubber stamp on the executive.

    When the courts are subverted it's time to worry. Which is also why the Swallow episode turns my colon. I heard a story on the radio recently that there are rumblings in China about the lousy rule of law where the big commercial organizations are in arms (figuratively) over other Chinese companies stealing their intellectual property and they are unable to enforce their rights in the lousy courts. So they're pressing for court reform. Poetic justice, 'eh?

  29. #89
    Not going to lie Pangloss, I would describe Snowden as a whistle blower hero. I think he did our country a huge service by bringing this to the forefront of our attention. It will now plant the seed in millions of minds, even if they don't have a problem with it now, that the government has too much power/information. Ten years from now, more people will distrust the US government with this type of stuff because of Snowden, and in my opinion not trusting your government is very, very healthy.
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  30. #90
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawminator View Post
    Not going to lie Pangloss, I would describe Snowden as a whistle blower hero. I think he did our country a huge service by bringing this to the forefront of our attention. It will now plant the seed in millions of minds, even if they don't have a problem with it now, that the government has too much power/information. Ten years from now, more people will distrust the US government with this type of stuff because of Snowden, and in my opinion not trusting your government is very, very healthy.
    The problem with Snowden, Dawm, is that there were a half-dozen other ways he could've "blown the whistle" without jeopardizing national security and everyone's safety. My question is, how did such a narcissist with such grandiose tendencies get access to such sensitive information? That question needs some serious review.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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