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Thread: The Utah Basketball Rebuild Project Thread: 2013 and after

  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Mac's tenure as Utah HC ended because many fans simply could not see any sustained improvement and eventually stopped caring. One of his last games as HC was against UNLV and my estimate was that there were fewer than 20k fans in attendance. I get the feeling that is where things are with LK. Nobody goes. Nobody is interested. The U is offering lower bowl tickets for $8 and can't sell them. Something needs to change.

    it is just so hard to watch. it is not enjoyable, and there isnt any optimism in the fan base.

    BTW, I saw a tweet yesterday that Stanford's home game against UCLA had the lowest attendance since 1985. It was announced at 3,200 more or less, and somebody commented that the actual attendance was much less than that.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    BTW, I saw a tweet yesterday that Stanford's home game against UCLA had the lowest attendance since 1985. It was announced at 3,200 more or less, and somebody commented that the actual attendance was much less than that.
    To be fair, Stanford has the smallest fan base of any Pac-12 program. But, yeah, things are not good in this conference.

    I think the Pac-12 is probably a canary for the rest of college sports. The growing disinterest in college athletics (and professional athletics too) along the hip coast will probably reach the midwest in 10 years and then finally the south in 20.

  3. #543
    As you read my comments, keep in mind that I am a paid shill.

    We have a mix of non-'one and done' young kids combined with a senior group that has always been inconsistent.

    In my opinion, these young guys are cut more from the Loveridge/Taylor/Tucker mold than they are the mold of other guys who have left. I think the struggles now will pay off in the coming years as they grow together and are joined next year by a very talented class.

    I hope fans show up to support them. I think it will be worth it given time.

  4. #544
    I agree, but it is really painful to watch.

    Not sure why Tillman only played 20 minutes last night, the same as CJ Jr & 1 more than PVD. I know he plays different position, but he needs to be on the floor, especially when Barefield is not scoring.

    The starting lineup with Battin & PVD has to change. It does for 2nd half,but makes for a slow painful start to the game.

    Gach is the only point guard on the team & the only one who seems to be able to come up with a loose ball. He was best Ute player last night, which was a low bar.

    The back-court of CJ Jr & PVD, which they had to use in OT at AZ because of fouls & gach ankle, did not work then & was like throwing in the towel last night. Neither one can create a shot for themselves or teammates. And with our 5's (either one) it is like an episode of 2 1/2 men--against 5.
    CJ Jr is a shut down defender--but his shot is so flat.

    Good recruiting class coming in next year--lots of Bigs & Lahat at full strength. They will need a shooter---

    The only hope for this year is the rest of the league is equally bad.

  5. #545
    It's like some of you were sitting right behind my brother-in-law last night in the Hunty.....or maybe some of our seemingly astute observations were fairly obvious.

    I made the same comment as SoCalPat above: Larry is going to be in real trouble very soon not necessarily because of his win/loss record but because of the general apathy around the program. Hard to see him lasting beyond next season if something doesn't change, but that will depend on people making the money work and I'm not sure how that looks now with Huntsman Sr having passed.

    I could be talked into Utah being pretty solid next season, but they desperately need one of the big men to be competent and will be relying on a group of freshmen to supplant a fourth year senior. Jayce struggles with a lot of things but he goes hard and Larry obviously likes him so he may be entrenched in the lineup.

    Crisp was going off in the first half until Utah put Jones on him, pretty quiet from that point on. Jones is a huge letdown on offense but having a lock down defender on the perimeter is also something this team sorely needs.

    Utah also desperately needs another shooting guard next year, with the emphasis on the shooting. I still get mad because if I could custom-build the guard they need it would basically be Vante Hendrix--someone who can shoot and brings some athleticism and toughness. I expect Utah to be looking hard at JCs for this, but hopefully with better results than they have gotten from Jones (offensively, at least).

    The rotations and playing time distributions were also weird. Utah immediately picked things up when Tillman entered the game in the first half. I'm not sure why he played so few minutes overall. It was also a 12-15 point game with almost five minutes left when both Barefield and Tillman came out to never return--Utah was very unlikely to win at that point but it seemed early to wave the white flag. Barefield was not having a good game but his presence did open things up for others to get shots.

    Weird game. Very frustrating and bleak time for the program.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by UBlender View Post
    Weird game. Very frustrating and bleak time for the program.
    It's not so bad. We know from last week that if our two best players can just manage to shoot 60% from the three point line, we can be right in there with the best teams in this conference.

  7. #547
    I'm mystified by Battin in the starting lineup. He has a long way to go to become more than a spot up shooter. Last night, he couldn't fill that role. I haven't followed the Utes closely this year so I ask an honest question: can Battin become a Pac-12 player? What have any of you seen to assuage my concerns.

    Loved Charles Jones last night. We sure need his defense. I actually thought he drove well a few times and found some people. Agree that his shot didn't look good. Gach and Allen are both big positives but both need a lot of work on shooting/shooting form - especially Allen. If he doesn't put some significant work on his shot - especially getting rid of holding the ball out from his body as he rises to shoot - he'll just be an undersized inside player his final few years. Allen sure fills the stat sheet though.

    I totally agree with Blender on the need for a Vante Hendrix type player next season. We have a strong class coming in but none of them fit that description. Can Jones get there? I don't think he has the size or the shot. I see him as a high-energy off the bench player who helps Larry have that second unit of "junk-yard dogs" who defend and beat up opponents. I sure wish the first unit played that way all the time.
    Last edited by Utebiquitous; 01-11-2019 at 05:56 PM.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    I'm mystified by Battin in the starting lineup. He has a long way to go to become more than a spot up shooter. Last night, he couldn't fill that role. I haven't followed the Utes closely this year so I ask an honest question: can Battin become a Pac-12 player? What have any of you seen to assuage my concerns.
    It will all depend on his willingness to hit the weights and become stronger and more physical.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Mac's tenure as Utah HC ended because many fans simply could not see any sustained improvement and eventually stopped caring. One of his last games as HC was against UNLV and my estimate was that there were fewer than 20k fans in attendance. I get the feeling that is where things are with LK. Nobody goes. Nobody is interested. The U is offering lower bowl tickets for $8 and can't sell them. Something needs to change.
    It is interesting to think about where the LK-era program is heading. It's both full of promise and seemingly spinning its wheels. It's an odd combo of sentiments to feel. It's kind of how you feel when a new coach comes in to build up a broken program, and yet we're eight years into this regime.

    I still think back to the Poeltl sophomore season before we crapped the bed against Gonzaga. Besides a couple bumps along the way, it looked like LK had successfully pulled us out of the post-Majerus maelstrom. My sentiments were high. Then there was that weird two-year period where our recruiting just took a major dump and the team didn't reload.

    What that looks like today, three seasons after Poeltl left, is a team with upperclassmen that haven't blossomed and a bunch of young bucks who are taking their underclassman lumps. Admittedly it's so frustrating to be here 8 years into a coach's tenure. For the first time in the LK era I'm questioning if he's the guy. That Washington game was so hard to watch that I was still grousing about it and didn't go to the WSU game (which, ironically, probably would have gotten the Husky-beat-down taste out of my mouth).

    As UTEopia suggests, will fans run out of patience before this young core can pay off with post-season dividends? I expect nothing of note this year, which puts a lot of pressure on next year to show that this program is headed toward good places. I wonder what next year has to yield to satisfy fans and boosters? I don't think NIT will cut it.

    At this point, I expect this team to make the NCAA tourney the next three years in a row (with at least one of those making it past the first weekend). If that doesn't happen, I'll be let down.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by FountainOfUte View Post

    At this point, I expect this team to make the NCAA tourney the next three years in a row (with at least one of those making it past the first weekend). If that doesn't happen, I'll be let down.
    We are essentially in the same place we were when Taylor, Loveridge and Tucker were freshmen. I think you are setting yourself up for a letdown with expectations for NCAA's next year. Goch, Allen and Battin may have higher ceilings than those three, but do they have the same work ethic? Can Allen develop an outside shot as Loveridge did? Can Goch acquire a no prisoners attitude of Taylor and can Battin be a consistent 3 point threat? What does Thioune really bring to the table. We were told he was very raw. Is there a Delon Wright or Jacob Poetl in the incoming class? I'm not buying an NCAA appearance next year, maybe NIT. I hope I am wrong.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by FountainOfUte View Post
    At this point, I expect this team to make the NCAA tourney the next three years in a row (with at least one of those making it past the first weekend). If that doesn't happen, I'll be let down.
    I'm thinking you'll be let down. When did Utah last make the tourney three years in a row? 2003-05? We had the future NBA #1 draft pick on our team for two of those.

    Here are our consecutive appearance streaks in the tournament:

    2 years 15-16
    4 years 02-05
    6 years 95-00
    3 years 77-79
    3 years 59-61
    2 years 55-56
    2 years 44-45

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm thinking you'll be let down. When did Utah last make the tourney three years in a row? 2003-05? We had the future NBA #1 draft pick on our team for two of those.

    Here are our consecutive appearance streaks in the tournament:

    2 years 15-16
    4 years 02-05
    6 years 95-00
    3 years 77-79
    3 years 59-61
    2 years 55-56
    2 years 44-45
    Damn 2001; two future fringe nba bigs and we only made the nit?

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Damn 2001; two future fringe nba bigs and we only made the nit?
    #FireRick

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    We are essentially in the same place we were when Taylor, Loveridge and Tucker were freshmen. I think you are setting yourself up for a letdown with expectations for NCAA's next year. Goch, Allen and Battin may have higher ceilings than those three, but do they have the same work ethic? Can Allen develop an outside shot as Loveridge did? Can Goch acquire a no prisoners attitude of Taylor and can Battin be a consistent 3 point threat? What does Thioune really bring to the table. We were told he was very raw. Is there a Delon Wright or Jacob Poetl in the incoming class? I'm not buying an NCAA appearance next year, maybe NIT. I hope I am wrong.
    One of the signs of our program’s decline over the past 15 years is the reduced expectations of the fans. This should not be acceptable at Utah.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    #FireRick
    You, with your graven image of Krystkowiak as your avatar, are shameless. I owe LAUte an apology when he complained about some posters deifying coaches in disregard of the U of U’s interests. He was talking about you!
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    You, with your graven image of Krystkowiak as your avatar, are shameless. I owe LAUte an apology when he complained about some posters deifying coaches in disregard of the U of U’s interests. He was talking about you!
    I have a wife and three kids to feed. What do you think happens to my paycheck if all of a sudden I stop promoting Larry k online? It's a horrible burden to carry.

  17. #557
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    I'm reading a great book on the Chicago Cubs ... "Story of a Curse," by Rich Cohen. Interestingly enough, one of his sources is Doug Plank, who is known for being the 46 (his uniform number) in the great 1985 Chicago Bears Super Bowl winning team's 46 Defense. He lists three kinds of coaches that are hired, and I think his descriptions are ones we're all familiar with with regard to Utah basketball.

    The Aspirin Coach: He comes in and feeds you a bunch of baloney that makes you feel good initially, but nothing really changes. There is some immediate improvement, but it's fleeting. I think this fits Jim Boylen to a 'T'. The players he inherited were talented and needed something different than Giacoletti (who, for sake of this exercise, is probably another Aspirin coach as well). I also think Jimmy vowed not to go down that road again with the Bulls, and became another type of coach (more on that later). But when Jimmy's inherited players moved on, he was lost.

    The Penicillin Coach: He fixes everything, any problems (like recruiting) or illnesses (in-game strategy, practice habits, etc.). Your truly great coaches are largely these types, and they don't have to adjust their style a whole lot throughout their tenure. Majerus was penicillin on game day, probably my next example in other instances. But penicillin alone doesn't cure cancer, and it's a malady that's common on many teams. That's when you need ...

    The Chemo Coach: He comes in, he's the unquestioned Man. Don't like what he's doing? You're gone. He's that powerful (I think Jimmy has tried to transform into a Chemo Coach with the Bulls -- and the NBA is probably the worst place to be that kind of coach). Some great examples of Chemo coaches are Mike Ditka, Bill Parcells and Jimmy Johnson. For the sake of the book, Plank listed Leo Duroucher as one. And I would say Larry Krystkowiak is one, even though it probably wasn't his intent to be one his entire career at Utah. Those that only know how to operate in that fashion aren't built for long-term sustainability.

    Here's the problem Larry finds himself in. When he took on the job at Utah, in his mind, maybe the team itself wasn't in need of chemotherapy, but the program was. How many times did we hear in our 5-win season that the culture needed to be changed? As a result, just about everyone tainted by previous staffs had to be let go. Collectively, they weren't cancerous, but individually -- well, Larry couldn't take that chance. It's why everyone but Jason Washburn was either let go or put on a very short leash (Jiggy Watkins comes to mind).

    Larry basically had to kill the patient (Utah basketball) in order to save it. I think we're all in agreement on that.

    You can do that once, and Larry succeeded wildly at it. Increasing win totals in his first five years, a S16, R32 that was preceded by an NIT bid (that would've been an NCAA year with better non-con scheduling). But what does the Chemo coach do when the patient is healthy? Utah basketball is largely healthy. We've consistently outperformed our predicted finish. We have the practice facility, we're fully entrenched in the Pac-12 and recruiting is pretty good. You don't give chemo to people without cancer -- if they're predisposed to it, there are lifestyle changes and safekeeping that you can undergo to help reduce your risk for getting cancer.

    Football and baseball can do well with a one-size-fits-all kind of coach, because of the number of players involved. Also, Baseball also has a farm system, while football is predisposed to shorter playing careers and contracts that aren't guaranteed. The players HAVE to adapt to the coach, not the other way around.

    Basketball -- you can only survive so long by being one kind, especially considering the youth of the players and that they have been empowered with more options now than ever before (options that didn't exist under Majerus, for example). Larry needed to be an Aspirin coach with guys like Chapman, Daniels and Hendrix. He needs to be more of a penicillin coach on gamedays. There's rarely any need for him to be a Chemo coach any longer, and I'm afraid that style is the only style his assistants know (especially Connor and Hill).

    All coaches have a sell-by date. It's not universally the same. Some lucky ones (like Kyle) largely get to choose that date. Larry has two millstones around his neck right now -- his salary and growing apathy among the fanbase. Majerus started accumulating those late in his career at Utah, too (the Allred incident cannot be emphasized enough in this regard). Sometimes, it's the coach that's the cancer. How he gets to be a cancer has a long list of variables in it. But that's when the AD has to apply the chemo. I don't think we're needing to call in Dr. Harlan yet, not even close.

    But the goodwill tank for Larry has been draining for some time. It's not completely empty, but it's nowhere near as full as it was after Delon graduated. He has time to fill it -- as frustrated as we are with this season, I think it's nearly universally understood that he gets this year, next year and probably the year after that. He's getting that time because, as lost as he may be with trying to find his way with this team, the results are still much, much better than what we had in Ray and Jimmy's final two years. He's got to figure it out. I think a shakeup among his assistants would do Larry a world of good this offseason, and a contract restructuring would add significantly to his goodwill tank.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Larry has two millstones around his neck right now -- his salary and growing apathy among the fanbase.
    And of course the third millstone, which is the one that matters, of not winning. Any issue related to K goes away if we just start winning.

    a contract restructuring would add significantly to his goodwill tank.
    I know it matters to you and probably some other fans, but I think the majority of fans wouldn't care about a contract restructuring. If we keep losing, very few fans are going to think we should keep him around because he agreed to coach for less money.

  19. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm thinking you'll be let down. When did Utah last make the tourney three years in a row? 2003-05? We had the future NBA #1 draft pick on our team for two of those.

    Here are our consecutive appearance streaks in the tournament:

    2 years 15-16
    4 years 02-05
    6 years 95-00
    3 years 77-79
    3 years 59-61
    2 years 55-56
    2 years 44-45
    I don't think consecutive year streaks do much to explain fan expectations with relation to program history for two reasons: First, nobody out there is insisting Utah should be making the tournament every year. Second, previous teams would've had longer streaks if they got to play in today's expanded bracket era.

    (There's also a third issue -- probation -- that kept your 59-61 example from being four straight NCAA bids instead of three, but I'm only including that here for background.)

    I think Jerry Pimm making the Dance 5 times in 7 years is a much more impressive "streak" than any of our 2/3 year streaks you note. Pimm would've had an NIT berth the year prior to that had the NIT not contracted from 16 teams to 12 for one year, so that's 6 postseason bids in 8 years, five of them NCAA. And although the NCAA fields grew in Pimm's era from 32 to 52, it's still far short of today's 68. I think this timeframe best represents the expectations fans have for Utah hoops.

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I don't think consecutive year streaks do much to explain fan expectations with relation to program history for two reasons: First, nobody out there is insisting Utah should be making the tournament every year. Second, previous teams would've had longer streaks if they got to play in today's expanded bracket era.

    (There's also a third issue -- probation -- that kept your 59-61 example from being four straight NCAA bids instead of three, but I'm only including that here for background.)

    I think Jerry Pimm making the Dance 5 times in 7 years is a much more impressive "streak" than any of our 2/3 year streaks you note. Pimm would've had an NIT berth the year prior to that had the NIT not contracted from 16 teams to 12 for one year, so that's 6 postseason bids in 8 years, five of them NCAA. And although the NCAA fields grew in Pimm's era from 32 to 52, it's still far short of today's 68. I think this timeframe best represents the expectations fans have for Utah hoops.
    Utah fans have a lot of goodwill for the basketball program and high expections. That is manifest in the exorbitant salary that Hill was able to raise for Krsystkowiak. Before Urban Meyer or Kyle Whittingham, before the Pac 12, while BYU owned us in football, before the Winter Olympics, before Mitt Romney, before the Utah Jazz or the Utah Stars, Runnin Ute basketball is what made people from other bigger market places pay attention to Utah and made Utah special, what put us on the map. It’s a long and beloved tradition that was brought to a high water mark by Majerus. Where Utah basketball is now is a tragedy of cosmic proportions for those who lived through even part of those glory days, and our AD needs to fix this foundering program. Nobody cares about renegotiating the coach’s contract. People want Utah basketball to be the Green Bay Packers of college football again—instead of Gonzaga, Wichita State, Butler, etc.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  21. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Utah fans have a lot of goodwill for the basketball program and high expections. That is manifest in the exorbitant salary that Hill was able to raise for Krsystkowiak. Before Urban Meyer or Kyle Whittingham, before the Pac 12, while BYU owned us in football, before the Winter Olympics, before Mitt Romney, before the Utah Jazz or the Utah Stars, Runnin Ute basketball is what made people from other bigger market places pay attention to Utah and made Utah special, what put us on the map. It’s a long and beloved tradition that was brought to a high water mark by Majerus. Where Utah basketball is now is a tragedy of cosmic proportions for those who lived through even part of those glory days, and our AD needs to fix this foundering program. Nobody cares about renegotiating the coach’s contract. People want Utah basketball to be the Green Bay Packers of college football again—instead of Gonzaga, Wichita State, Butler, etc.
    I agree. I'm not sure whether the fix is to continue with LK or move on. We will all have differing opinions on that question.

  22. #562
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Utah fans have a lot of goodwill for the basketball program and high expections. That is manifest in the exorbitant salary that Hill was able to raise for Krsystkowiak. Before Urban Meyer or Kyle Whittingham, before the Pac 12, while BYU owned us in football, before the Winter Olympics, before Mitt Romney, before the Utah Jazz or the Utah Stars, Runnin Ute basketball is what made people from other bigger market places pay attention to Utah and made Utah special, what put us on the map. It’s a long and beloved tradition that was brought to a high water mark by Majerus. Where Utah basketball is now is a tragedy of cosmic proportions for those who lived through even part of those glory days, and our AD needs to fix this foundering program. Nobody cares about renegotiating the coach’s contract. People want Utah basketball to be the Green Bay Packers of college football again—instead of Gonzaga, Wichita State, Butler, etc.
    Excellent posts today, folks.

    It's hard to explain
    In any given year, I would trade a 1-win football season and a blow-out loss to the byu for an Elite 8 or Final-4 appearance in the NCAA.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  23. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    Excellent posts today, folks.

    It's hard to explain
    In any given year, I would trade a 1-win football season and a blow-out loss to the byu for an Elite 8 or Final-4 appearance in the NCAA.
    I think you are in the minority of fans, though. Maybe not donors. I'm not sure.

    Of course, we all just want Utah to excel in both revenue sports.

  24. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    Excellent posts today, folks.

    It's hard to explain
    In any given year, I would trade a 1-win football season and a blow-out loss to the byu for an Elite 8 or Final-4 appearance in the NCAA.
    I used to feel this way. Not so much since 2004/2008.
    I saw a door that said exit only. So I entered through it and went up to the guy working there and said "I have good news. You have severely underestimated that door over there. By like a hundred percent." Demetri Marti

  25. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm thinking you'll be let down. When did Utah last make the tourney three years in a row? 2003-05? We had the future NBA #1 draft pick on our team for two of those.

    Here are our consecutive appearance streaks in the tournament:

    2 years 15-16
    4 years 02-05
    6 years 95-00
    3 years 77-79
    3 years 59-61
    2 years 55-56
    2 years 44-45
    It's interesting to see the numbers. I remember these streaks generally but haven't stared them in the eyes.

    It's true, we've not put many impressive streaks together lately. I personally feel like Utah should be in the tourney about 3 years out of 5, with one of those visits being S16 or deeper. Also, well before this season started I didn't expect this to be a Dance year (and kinda got killed for that opinion on Twitter). While I knew we'd be breaking in a bunch of young Thorobreds this year, what I didn't see coming was the sad trombone play of the upperclassmen. I think I finally have to admit that I was wrong about Jayce. He's been a bit of a social media piñata, and I've been preaching patience -- that he'd be one of those guys who'd start paying off big in his Jr and Sr years. Oops.

    Similarly Van Dyke and Barefield have been inconsistent and Charles Jones and Topalovic have had almost zero impact for a decorated JC and an experienced transfer. Even Tillman - who I still have quite a bit of faith in - hasn't made as big a leap as I thought.

    With all of that said, just the addition of a pure and talented point guard (Jones) next year could do WONDERS for our anemic offense woes. And all of these young guys, I think (i.e. hope), will have taken enough hard knocks this year to pay off with success next year. At that point, I just figure that these young guys just keep getting better the next years.

    So, yeah, I'm doing some pro-level wishing here regarding NCAA's the next three seasons, but I think we're finally filling the ranks with the kind of talent that can get it done. Question is, can LK keep this group focused, can he keep the fans hopeful and the boosters satisfied, and can he walk the scheduling tightrope just right so that the team gets wins with wins that count (this has been a surprising shortcoming of LK's).

  26. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    People want Utah basketball to be the Green Bay Packers of college football again—instead of Gonzaga, Wichita State, Butler, etc.
    Utah fans are what I assume you mean by "people," right? I'm not sure Utah basketball's appeal spreads much beyond the Beehive State. Majerus's did as a cult of personality, but that left with him to St. Louie.

    I think the college basketball world has changed too much, even since Majerus, to think that any of our past success would apply again today. I think our ceiling is higher than we've shown in the last decade, but I'm also not sure what the right formula is to reach bigger and more consistent heights. We have the facilities. We have (at least I THINK we have ) a P5 basketball conference, we have some history, there's some local talent, and plenty of regional talent to recruit here. Just gotta put it all together.
    Last edited by FountainOfUte; 01-17-2019 at 05:52 PM.

  27. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by FountainOfUte View Post
    Utah fans are what I assume you mean by "people," right? I'm not sure Utah basketball's appeal spreads much beyond the Beehive State. Majerus's did as a cult of personality, but that left with him to St. Louie.

    I think the college basketball world has changed too much, even since Majerus, to think that any of our past success would apply again today. I think our ceiling is higher than we've shown in the last decade, but I'm also not sure what the right formula is to reach bigger and more consistent heights. We have the facilities. We have (at least I THINK we have ) a P5 basketball conference, we have some history, there's some local talent, and plenty of regional talent to recruit here. Just gotta put it all together.
    Your first paragraph is nonsense, I don’t understand it, and I’m sure nobody else does. As for the second paragraph, you must be about 18 years old or suffering from memory loss.

    The formula for success at Utah isn’t a mystery. It’s the same for basketball as football, has succeeded for a hundred years, and still works. It’s simply this: 1) a defense first philosophy; 2) totally uncompromising work ethic; 3) a disciplined and patient offense that relies on intelligent choices and appreciates its subordinate role to and reliance on success defending against the opponent’s offense; 4) overwhelming success and willingness to take risks recruiting the very best players in Utah outside of Alpine, Orem, and Provo; 5) patience with and ability to work the mission thing; 6) four-year players who may take a couple of years to become effective the core of the program; 7) consistency in executing these concepts with a long-term commitment to the program.

    That’s the formula. It’s not easy. It takes a special coach. And the reason Utah has been failing for well over half of the past 15 years is that our coaches have lacked the character that prior coaches had.

    Anytime anyone tries to do it the lazy way, looking for shortuts in Europe or through too much reliance on Jucos or transfers, or an offense that looks like North Carolina’s, disaster ensues. Utah had success before Majerus and even spotty success afterward. If anything, Utah has more ability to succeed now than when it was hidden away in the MWC or WAC.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  28. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    I used to feel this way. Not so much since 2004/2008.
    You're crazy. Solon's proposal is only sacrificing one football season. And it's for something that predates 2004-2008. We've blown past the 20-year mark since our last Final Four. Has breaking the BCS and thumping Alabama in the Sugar Bowl really reduced boatracing Arizona and beating North Carolina (and leading Kentucky for 30-plus minutes) to something so trifling that we wouldn't take going 1-11 in football to experience it again?

  29. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by FountainOfUte View Post
    Utah fans are what I assume you mean by "people," right? I'm not sure Utah basketball's appeal spreads much beyond the Beehive State. Majerus's did as a cult of personality, but that left with him to St. Louie.

    I think the college basketball world has changed too much, even since Majerus, to think that any of our past success would apply again today. I think our ceiling is higher than we've shown in the last decade, but I'm also not sure what the right formula is to reach bigger and more consistent heights. We have the facilities. We have (at least I THINK we have ) a P5 basketball conference, we have some history, there's some local talent, and plenty of regional talent to recruit here. Just gotta put it all together.
    I understood what you meant. SU used Green Bay to mirror the demographic disadvantage Utah hoops faces. You took it to mean widespread popularity and national appeal.
    Last edited by SoCalPat; 01-17-2019 at 10:59 PM.

  30. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I understood what you meant. SU used Green Bay to mirror the demographic disadvantage Utah hoops faces. You took it to mean widespread popularity and national appeal.
    That’s right.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

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