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Thread: The Utah Basketball Rebuild Project Thread: 2013 and after

  1. #511
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Even when we have great talent on the team, we have a knack for being completely unable to inbound the ball. Stupid play to close out games. Silly mistakes that cause losses.
    These are a on the coach. He never seems to adjust to those problems, or at least he hasn't since 2012 or so.
    I’ve always wondered why this is a perennial problem. You’re right, it’s on the coach. The momentum-killing timeouts to plan inbounds plays that don’t even come close to working are also head-scratchers — and are repeated and are on the head coach. (Kind of like a perennially mediocre football offense.&#128521

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
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    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
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    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #512
    This was so evident Saturday. Nevada stayed committed to a man-to-man on inbounds plays. I never saw anything that looked like an inbounds play. I understand just getting it in and running offense against a zone but a baseline out-of-bounds situation cries out for a play - in my opinion.

    I also loved (sarcasm) the timeout with :07 left at the end of the half. The Utes were advancing the ball quickly but Larry jumped up and called timeout. What came of the timeout? A well-guarded three. Sigh.

  3. #513
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    I also loved (sarcasm) the timeout with :07 left at the end of the half. The Utes were advancing the ball quickly but Larry jumped up and called timeout. What came of the timeout? A well-guarded three. Sigh.
    It’s an odd habit with LK — a momentum-killing TO that results in an inbounds play that flops. Remember the UCLA game at home 2-3 years ago? That same scenario arose at the end of a very winnable game, when all the team needed was a drive the hoop that would produce a basket and/or free throws. Instead, after a time out with a few seconds left, the game ended with Kuzma missing on an off-balance hope shot from 25 feet out as time expired.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #514
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Interesting article. Seems to fit here better than anywhere else. I don’t remember David Reichner from the Majerus era:

    Utah basketball: Former guard David Reichner talks about his playing days, life as an assistant coach

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...assistant.html

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #515
    David Reichner??

    I loved Big Rick, but Soto has an interesting view of his time—-he was not a fan of practicing on Xmas Day.

    Agreed: in bounds plays & time outs at end of half’s/games drive me crazy.

    Recruiting is a crap shoot—especially when you don’t pay recruits.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This is how college basketball works now.

    Why would I care about the coach's salary? I don't pay it.
    LOL. Watch games on TV? Buy tickets to games? Guess what? You're paying Larry's salary.

  7. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    LOL. Watch games on TV? Buy tickets to games? Guess what? You're paying Larry's salary.
    I'm not paying him any more now than if he earned $100 per year.

    All I care about is winning. If we are better with Larry than with someone else, we should keep him. If we can do better, we should fire him. His salary doesn't enter that equation.

  8. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm not paying him any more now than if he earned $100 per year.

    All I care about is winning. If we are better with Larry than with someone else, we should keep him. If we can do better, we should fire him. His salary doesn't enter that equation.

    I totally agree. One thing people do not talk about is the lack of movement on his staff. I understand why guys like Connor and Jones stay around. They have deep Utah roots, but the other guys really don't and there has apparently been very little interest in those guys from other programs.

  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm not paying him any more now than if he earned $100 per year.

    All I care about is winning. If we are better with Larry than with someone else, we should keep him. If we can do better, we should fire him. His salary doesn't enter that equation.
    It’s a bad look when the labor is free and the school has poured millions into investing in the program on his behalf. But you’re ok with Larry getting paid nowhere in relation to the results he’s delivered. Noted.

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I totally agree. One thing people do not talk about is the lack of movement on his staff. I understand why guys like Connor and Jones stay around. They have deep Utah roots, but the other guys really don't and there has apparently been very little interest in those guys from other programs.
    I’ve been talking about it for years. Nobody wants our coaches, and for good reason. What do they do that’s exceptional? This is where the rubber leaves the road when it comes to comparing Larry to Kyle — even the coaches that fall out of favor in the program still get jobs elsewhere. The best ones move on and get good jobs, even HC jobs. Hell, our grad assistants eventually find their way into programs — I’m repeated surprised to see names I haven’t talked about in years on the staffs of some good programs.

    The idea that Tommy is the heir apparent to Larry was ridiculous 5 years ago, and fortunately, I see no one pushing that as an option if we gotta move on from Larry. Also, I think he’s the highest-paid assistant in the PAC 12. Thanks again, Dr. Hill!

  11. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    It’s a bad look when the labor is free and the school has poured millions into investing in the program on his behalf. But you’re ok with Larry getting paid nowhere in relation to the results he’s delivered. Noted.
    I'm okay with it in the sense that I don't know or care how much he makes. It means nothing to me as a fan. I just want him to win, or I want someone else who will win. If he made less, would I be more content with losing? No. "Well, we never make the tournament, and the fans are disinterested, but he's coming cheap, so we'll keep him." Said no fan ever.

    At BYU, they don't know how much their coaches make, and that doesn't really change the equation for them. If we had no idea what Larry was making, would our desires to see him stay/go change? Why? Just win, baby.

    The salary only matters if it hamstrings us. If it makes it impossible to fire a coach who needs to be fired, then it matters. That's not the case with Larry. If we had a 100%, sure thing improvement, we could afford to fire him today.

  12. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm okay with it in the sense that I don't know or care how much he makes. It means nothing to me as a fan. I just want him to win, or I want someone else who will win. If he made less, would I be more content with losing? No. "Well, we never make the tournament, and the fans are disinterested, but he's coming cheap, so we'll keep him." Said no fan ever.At BYU, they don't know how much their coaches make, and that doesn't really change the equation for them. If we had no idea what Larry was making, would our desires to see him stay/go change? Why? Just win, baby.The salary only matters if it hamstrings us. If it makes it impossible to fire a coach who needs to be fired, then it matters. That's not the case with Larry. If we had a 100%, sure thing improvement, we could afford to fire him today.
    Also said no fan ever: "I think it's great that our coach is top 10 nationally in salary while barely cracking the top 10 in his own league standings."

    The buyout currently, IIRC, is $12M. Can Utah afford to fire him today? That figure represents about 1/6th of our annual athletics budget -- which includes sizable subsidies from student fees and other indirect institutional support. You're probably gonna have to have donors pony up to cover that buyout, if it were to happen within the next three years. That's money from them that could be going to other projects, paying other coaches, building more facilities, etc.

    If Larry made less, the change would be much easier to make. But, as you've noted, you don't think Larry's salary is a big deal and doesn't affect you as a fan.

  13. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Also said no fan ever: "I think it's great that our coach is top 10 nationally in salary while barely cracking the top 10 in his own league standings."
    This is true because of the 2nd part of the statement. No fan will put up with an underperforming coach at any salary. Any fan will embrace a winning coach at any salary. It's about wins and losses, not dollars.

    Are you saying that you'd be more lenient in evaluating Larry if he earned less? You'd be willing to put up with the losses? That doesn't resonate with me at all.

  14. #524
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    The idea that Tommy is the heir apparent to Larry was ridiculous 5 years ago, and fortunately, I see no one pushing that as an option if we gotta move on from Larry. Also, I think he’s the highest-paid assistant in the PAC 12. Thanks again, Dr. Hill!
    It is a puzzle. Reportedly Tommy also has a sizeable buyout if he's not the next coach after Larry. If so I think that's crazy crazy crazy.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This is true because of the 2nd part of the statement. No fan will put up with an underperforming coach at any salary. Any fan will embrace a winning coach at any salary. It's about wins and losses, not dollars.

    Are you saying that you'd be more lenient in evaluating Larry if he earned less? You'd be willing to put up with the losses? That doesn't resonate with me at all.
    To add to your point, its not like ticket/merchandise/tv package prices will go down if Larry is paid less. I certainly understand and appreciate the criticism of results versus his high salary, but I ultimately side with you here. The losing sucks whether Larry makes $1 per year or 15 million.

  16. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It is a puzzle. Reportedly Tommy also has a sizeable buyout if he's not the next coach after Larry. If so I think that's crazy crazy crazy.

    Without knowing more, that sounds like athletic director malpractice to me. It is hard to believe.

  17. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Without knowing more, that sounds like athletic director malpractice to me. It is hard to believe.
    Especially hard to believe in light of Chris Hill's tight-fistedness. But who knows? He was willing to throw millions at Larry.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This is true because of the 2nd part of the statement. No fan will put up with an underperforming coach at any salary. Any fan will embrace a winning coach at any salary. It's about wins and losses, not dollars.

    Are you saying that you'd be more lenient in evaluating Larry if he earned less? You'd be willing to put up with the losses? That doesn't resonate with me at all.
    I'd be more quick to fire him if he earned less. I'm exhibiting some patience on this because the money doesn't grow on trees, and Larry has shown to be quite capable in years past. I don't think we can really seriously consider firing him before the end of the 2019-20 season, and for probably another year after that.

    Larry's lack of performance this year, combined with the ridiculous extensions handed to him by Harlan's predecessor, have put Utah basketball in quite a bind. We're on the hook for a ton, so when people complain about Larry's salary, there's also an undercurrent of dread that we can't act as quickly as we have in the past.

  19. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Especially hard to believe in light of Chris Hill's tight-fistedness. But who knows? He was willing to throw millions at Larry.

    And C Hills' timetable; as it turned out, he really would have been handcuffing Harlan or any successor.

  20. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I'd be more quick to fire him if he earned less. I'm exhibiting some patience on this because the money doesn't grow on trees, and Larry has shown to be quite capable in years past. I don't think we can really seriously consider firing him before the end of the 2019-20 season, and for probably another year after that.

    Larry's lack of performance this year, combined with the ridiculous extensions handed to him by Harlan's predecessor, have put Utah basketball in quite a bind. We're on the hook for a ton, so when people complain about Larry's salary, there's also an undercurrent of dread that we can't act as quickly as we have in the past.
    Also, the growth in apathy in the fanbase that could occur if we get results like these over the next year or two are damaging financially in terms of lost ticket sales, concessions, parking, donations, etc. But yeah, you guys that say Larry's salary shouldn't matter, keep thinking that. Money is everything in college athletics, and the better you use it, the better results you see. We're not a program that can afford to be throwing it around.

  21. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    But yeah, you guys that say Larry's salary shouldn't matter, keep thinking that. Money is everything in college athletics, and the better you use it, the better results you see. We're not a program that can afford to be throwing it around.
    I am not arguing that money doesn't matter in college athletics. I'm arguing that it doesn't matter to me when deciding whether or not I believe Larry should be fired. I am not weighing his performance against his salary. I'm weighing his performance against my hopes and expectations for Utah basketball.

    I did mention that the salary clearly does matter if it hamstrings a firing decision.

  22. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I am not arguing that money doesn't matter in college athletics. I'm arguing that it doesn't matter to me when deciding whether or not I believe Larry should be fired. I am not weighing his performance against his salary. I'm weighing his performance against my hopes and expectations for Utah basketball.

    I did mention that the salary clearly does matter if it hamstrings a firing decision.
    Would you say his salary, in relation to his peers, clearly exceeds your hopes and expectations for Utah basketball? He receives a salary that is in line with annual NCAA bids, frequent wins and maybe a deep run that results in a Final Four. Are the results we’re getting this year acceptable for a coach that’s the 8th-highest paid in the country?

  23. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Would you say his salary, in relation to his peers, clearly exceeds your hopes and expectations for Utah basketball?
    I do agree with that, yes. It's just that, for me, that doesn't change how I view the question of his retention.

  24. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I'd be more quick to fire him if he earned less.
    Hill was in over his head. But if the losing gets bad enough, Harlan will raise the money needed to enable him to make a change, whatever the truth is about the buyout. The key to America’s success is that everything can be reduced to a money problem. This is just a money problem which is inherently solveable. Ultimately, Utah’s fatcats care most about basketball.
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  25. #535
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Without knowing more, that sounds like athletic director malpractice to me. It is hard to believe.
    Driven by Huntsman?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #536
    I believe there are a couple of things that can be done to improve the basketball atmosphere. These are not major things, but I think they would help. While the Utes played a better schedule this year, the only home games worth seeing were Tulsa and Nevada. We schedule a bunch of shit teams nobody is interested in seeing. I'm all for smart scheduling, but if you are going to play a DII school, play Dixie or Westminster. Play a home and home with Weber, USU and BYU in the years that you don't play that school in the tournament thing. Play SUU and UVU instead of Florida Atlantic and Northern Arizona.

  27. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It is a puzzle. Reportedly Tommy also has a sizeable buyout if he's not the next coach after Larry. If so I think that's crazy crazy crazy.
    This is not true. I just got Connor's contract. It's a one-year deal from July 1 2018 through June 30 2019, and it expires in June with at least 30-days notice from the U. There is nothing in it about Tommy becoming the next head coach, and it says that if he is terminated before the end of the contractual term then he is only entitled to the payment that's left on the deal. Additionally, the contract is fully integrated and my request would have covered any other documents spelling out anything dealing with him becoming the next head coach.

  28. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    This is not true. I just got Connor's contract. It's a one-year deal from July 1 2018 through June 30 2019, and it expires in June with at least 30-days notice from the U. There is nothing in it about Tommy becoming the next head coach, and it says that if he is terminated before the end of the contractual term then he is only entitled to the payment that's left on the deal. Additionally, the contract is fully integrated and my request would have covered any other documents spelling out anything dealing with him becoming the next head coach.
    Scratch GRAMA requests to the rescue!

  29. #539
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    This is not true. I just got Connor's contract. It's a one-year deal from July 1 2018 through June 30 2019, and it expires in June with at least 30-days notice from the U. There is nothing in it about Tommy becoming the next head coach, and it says that if he is terminated before the end of the contractual term then he is only entitled to the payment that's left on the deal. Additionally, the contract is fully integrated and my request would have covered any other documents spelling out anything dealing with him becoming the next head coach.
    Thank you for killing that rumor, as incredible as it was!
    Last edited by LA Ute; 01-03-2019 at 12:27 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #540
    Mac's tenure as Utah HC ended because many fans simply could not see any sustained improvement and eventually stopped caring. One of his last games as HC was against UNLV and my estimate was that there were fewer than 20k fans in attendance. I get the feeling that is where things are with LK. Nobody goes. Nobody is interested. The U is offering lower bowl tickets for $8 and can't sell them. Something needs to change.

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