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Thread: The Utah Basketball Rebuild Project Thread: 2013 and after

  1. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm not paying him any more now than if he earned $100 per year.

    All I care about is winning. If we are better with Larry than with someone else, we should keep him. If we can do better, we should fire him. His salary doesn't enter that equation.

    I totally agree. One thing people do not talk about is the lack of movement on his staff. I understand why guys like Connor and Jones stay around. They have deep Utah roots, but the other guys really don't and there has apparently been very little interest in those guys from other programs.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm not paying him any more now than if he earned $100 per year.

    All I care about is winning. If we are better with Larry than with someone else, we should keep him. If we can do better, we should fire him. His salary doesn't enter that equation.
    It’s a bad look when the labor is free and the school has poured millions into investing in the program on his behalf. But you’re ok with Larry getting paid nowhere in relation to the results he’s delivered. Noted.

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I totally agree. One thing people do not talk about is the lack of movement on his staff. I understand why guys like Connor and Jones stay around. They have deep Utah roots, but the other guys really don't and there has apparently been very little interest in those guys from other programs.
    I’ve been talking about it for years. Nobody wants our coaches, and for good reason. What do they do that’s exceptional? This is where the rubber leaves the road when it comes to comparing Larry to Kyle — even the coaches that fall out of favor in the program still get jobs elsewhere. The best ones move on and get good jobs, even HC jobs. Hell, our grad assistants eventually find their way into programs — I’m repeated surprised to see names I haven’t talked about in years on the staffs of some good programs.

    The idea that Tommy is the heir apparent to Larry was ridiculous 5 years ago, and fortunately, I see no one pushing that as an option if we gotta move on from Larry. Also, I think he’s the highest-paid assistant in the PAC 12. Thanks again, Dr. Hill!

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm okay with it in the sense that I don't know or care how much he makes. It means nothing to me as a fan. I just want him to win, or I want someone else who will win. If he made less, would I be more content with losing? No. "Well, we never make the tournament, and the fans are disinterested, but he's coming cheap, so we'll keep him." Said no fan ever.At BYU, they don't know how much their coaches make, and that doesn't really change the equation for them. If we had no idea what Larry was making, would our desires to see him stay/go change? Why? Just win, baby.The salary only matters if it hamstrings us. If it makes it impossible to fire a coach who needs to be fired, then it matters. That's not the case with Larry. If we had a 100%, sure thing improvement, we could afford to fire him today.
    Also said no fan ever: "I think it's great that our coach is top 10 nationally in salary while barely cracking the top 10 in his own league standings."

    The buyout currently, IIRC, is $12M. Can Utah afford to fire him today? That figure represents about 1/6th of our annual athletics budget -- which includes sizable subsidies from student fees and other indirect institutional support. You're probably gonna have to have donors pony up to cover that buyout, if it were to happen within the next three years. That's money from them that could be going to other projects, paying other coaches, building more facilities, etc.

    If Larry made less, the change would be much easier to make. But, as you've noted, you don't think Larry's salary is a big deal and doesn't affect you as a fan.

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    The idea that Tommy is the heir apparent to Larry was ridiculous 5 years ago, and fortunately, I see no one pushing that as an option if we gotta move on from Larry. Also, I think he’s the highest-paid assistant in the PAC 12. Thanks again, Dr. Hill!
    It is a puzzle. Reportedly Tommy also has a sizeable buyout if he's not the next coach after Larry. If so I think that's crazy crazy crazy.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
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    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
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    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This is true because of the 2nd part of the statement. No fan will put up with an underperforming coach at any salary. Any fan will embrace a winning coach at any salary. It's about wins and losses, not dollars.

    Are you saying that you'd be more lenient in evaluating Larry if he earned less? You'd be willing to put up with the losses? That doesn't resonate with me at all.
    To add to your point, its not like ticket/merchandise/tv package prices will go down if Larry is paid less. I certainly understand and appreciate the criticism of results versus his high salary, but I ultimately side with you here. The losing sucks whether Larry makes $1 per year or 15 million.

  7. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It is a puzzle. Reportedly Tommy also has a sizeable buyout if he's not the next coach after Larry. If so I think that's crazy crazy crazy.

    Without knowing more, that sounds like athletic director malpractice to me. It is hard to believe.

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Without knowing more, that sounds like athletic director malpractice to me. It is hard to believe.
    Especially hard to believe in light of Chris Hill's tight-fistedness. But who knows? He was willing to throw millions at Larry.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This is true because of the 2nd part of the statement. No fan will put up with an underperforming coach at any salary. Any fan will embrace a winning coach at any salary. It's about wins and losses, not dollars.

    Are you saying that you'd be more lenient in evaluating Larry if he earned less? You'd be willing to put up with the losses? That doesn't resonate with me at all.
    I'd be more quick to fire him if he earned less. I'm exhibiting some patience on this because the money doesn't grow on trees, and Larry has shown to be quite capable in years past. I don't think we can really seriously consider firing him before the end of the 2019-20 season, and for probably another year after that.

    Larry's lack of performance this year, combined with the ridiculous extensions handed to him by Harlan's predecessor, have put Utah basketball in quite a bind. We're on the hook for a ton, so when people complain about Larry's salary, there's also an undercurrent of dread that we can't act as quickly as we have in the past.

  10. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Especially hard to believe in light of Chris Hill's tight-fistedness. But who knows? He was willing to throw millions at Larry.

    And C Hills' timetable; as it turned out, he really would have been handcuffing Harlan or any successor.

  11. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I'd be more quick to fire him if he earned less. I'm exhibiting some patience on this because the money doesn't grow on trees, and Larry has shown to be quite capable in years past. I don't think we can really seriously consider firing him before the end of the 2019-20 season, and for probably another year after that.

    Larry's lack of performance this year, combined with the ridiculous extensions handed to him by Harlan's predecessor, have put Utah basketball in quite a bind. We're on the hook for a ton, so when people complain about Larry's salary, there's also an undercurrent of dread that we can't act as quickly as we have in the past.
    Also, the growth in apathy in the fanbase that could occur if we get results like these over the next year or two are damaging financially in terms of lost ticket sales, concessions, parking, donations, etc. But yeah, you guys that say Larry's salary shouldn't matter, keep thinking that. Money is everything in college athletics, and the better you use it, the better results you see. We're not a program that can afford to be throwing it around.

  12. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I am not arguing that money doesn't matter in college athletics. I'm arguing that it doesn't matter to me when deciding whether or not I believe Larry should be fired. I am not weighing his performance against his salary. I'm weighing his performance against my hopes and expectations for Utah basketball.

    I did mention that the salary clearly does matter if it hamstrings a firing decision.
    Would you say his salary, in relation to his peers, clearly exceeds your hopes and expectations for Utah basketball? He receives a salary that is in line with annual NCAA bids, frequent wins and maybe a deep run that results in a Final Four. Are the results we’re getting this year acceptable for a coach that’s the 8th-highest paid in the country?

  13. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I'd be more quick to fire him if he earned less.
    Hill was in over his head. But if the losing gets bad enough, Harlan will raise the money needed to enable him to make a change, whatever the truth is about the buyout. The key to America’s success is that everything can be reduced to a money problem. This is just a money problem which is inherently solveable. Ultimately, Utah’s fatcats care most about basketball.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

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  14. #524
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Without knowing more, that sounds like athletic director malpractice to me. It is hard to believe.
    Driven by Huntsman?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #525
    I believe there are a couple of things that can be done to improve the basketball atmosphere. These are not major things, but I think they would help. While the Utes played a better schedule this year, the only home games worth seeing were Tulsa and Nevada. We schedule a bunch of shit teams nobody is interested in seeing. I'm all for smart scheduling, but if you are going to play a DII school, play Dixie or Westminster. Play a home and home with Weber, USU and BYU in the years that you don't play that school in the tournament thing. Play SUU and UVU instead of Florida Atlantic and Northern Arizona.

  16. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It is a puzzle. Reportedly Tommy also has a sizeable buyout if he's not the next coach after Larry. If so I think that's crazy crazy crazy.
    This is not true. I just got Connor's contract. It's a one-year deal from July 1 2018 through June 30 2019, and it expires in June with at least 30-days notice from the U. There is nothing in it about Tommy becoming the next head coach, and it says that if he is terminated before the end of the contractual term then he is only entitled to the payment that's left on the deal. Additionally, the contract is fully integrated and my request would have covered any other documents spelling out anything dealing with him becoming the next head coach.

  17. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    This is not true. I just got Connor's contract. It's a one-year deal from July 1 2018 through June 30 2019, and it expires in June with at least 30-days notice from the U. There is nothing in it about Tommy becoming the next head coach, and it says that if he is terminated before the end of the contractual term then he is only entitled to the payment that's left on the deal. Additionally, the contract is fully integrated and my request would have covered any other documents spelling out anything dealing with him becoming the next head coach.
    Scratch GRAMA requests to the rescue!

  18. #528
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    This is not true. I just got Connor's contract. It's a one-year deal from July 1 2018 through June 30 2019, and it expires in June with at least 30-days notice from the U. There is nothing in it about Tommy becoming the next head coach, and it says that if he is terminated before the end of the contractual term then he is only entitled to the payment that's left on the deal. Additionally, the contract is fully integrated and my request would have covered any other documents spelling out anything dealing with him becoming the next head coach.
    Thank you for killing that rumor, as incredible as it was!
    Last edited by LA Ute; 01-03-2019 at 11:27 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #529
    Mac's tenure as Utah HC ended because many fans simply could not see any sustained improvement and eventually stopped caring. One of his last games as HC was against UNLV and my estimate was that there were fewer than 20k fans in attendance. I get the feeling that is where things are with LK. Nobody goes. Nobody is interested. The U is offering lower bowl tickets for $8 and can't sell them. Something needs to change.

  20. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Mac's tenure as Utah HC ended because many fans simply could not see any sustained improvement and eventually stopped caring. One of his last games as HC was against UNLV and my estimate was that there were fewer than 20k fans in attendance. I get the feeling that is where things are with LK. Nobody goes. Nobody is interested. The U is offering lower bowl tickets for $8 and can't sell them. Something needs to change.

    it is just so hard to watch. it is not enjoyable, and there isnt any optimism in the fan base.

    BTW, I saw a tweet yesterday that Stanford's home game against UCLA had the lowest attendance since 1985. It was announced at 3,200 more or less, and somebody commented that the actual attendance was much less than that.

  21. #531
    As you read my comments, keep in mind that I am a paid shill.

    We have a mix of non-'one and done' young kids combined with a senior group that has always been inconsistent.

    In my opinion, these young guys are cut more from the Loveridge/Taylor/Tucker mold than they are the mold of other guys who have left. I think the struggles now will pay off in the coming years as they grow together and are joined next year by a very talented class.

    I hope fans show up to support them. I think it will be worth it given time.

  22. #532
    I agree, but it is really painful to watch.

    Not sure why Tillman only played 20 minutes last night, the same as CJ Jr & 1 more than PVD. I know he plays different position, but he needs to be on the floor, especially when Barefield is not scoring.

    The starting lineup with Battin & PVD has to change. It does for 2nd half,but makes for a slow painful start to the game.

    Gach is the only point guard on the team & the only one who seems to be able to come up with a loose ball. He was best Ute player last night, which was a low bar.

    The back-court of CJ Jr & PVD, which they had to use in OT at AZ because of fouls & gach ankle, did not work then & was like throwing in the towel last night. Neither one can create a shot for themselves or teammates. And with our 5's (either one) it is like an episode of 2 1/2 men--against 5.
    CJ Jr is a shut down defender--but his shot is so flat.

    Good recruiting class coming in next year--lots of Bigs & Lahat at full strength. They will need a shooter---

    The only hope for this year is the rest of the league is equally bad.

  23. #533
    It's like some of you were sitting right behind my brother-in-law last night in the Hunty.....or maybe some of our seemingly astute observations were fairly obvious.

    I made the same comment as SoCalPat above: Larry is going to be in real trouble very soon not necessarily because of his win/loss record but because of the general apathy around the program. Hard to see him lasting beyond next season if something doesn't change, but that will depend on people making the money work and I'm not sure how that looks now with Huntsman Sr having passed.

    I could be talked into Utah being pretty solid next season, but they desperately need one of the big men to be competent and will be relying on a group of freshmen to supplant a fourth year senior. Jayce struggles with a lot of things but he goes hard and Larry obviously likes him so he may be entrenched in the lineup.

    Crisp was going off in the first half until Utah put Jones on him, pretty quiet from that point on. Jones is a huge letdown on offense but having a lock down defender on the perimeter is also something this team sorely needs.

    Utah also desperately needs another shooting guard next year, with the emphasis on the shooting. I still get mad because if I could custom-build the guard they need it would basically be Vante Hendrix--someone who can shoot and brings some athleticism and toughness. I expect Utah to be looking hard at JCs for this, but hopefully with better results than they have gotten from Jones (offensively, at least).

    The rotations and playing time distributions were also weird. Utah immediately picked things up when Tillman entered the game in the first half. I'm not sure why he played so few minutes overall. It was also a 12-15 point game with almost five minutes left when both Barefield and Tillman came out to never return--Utah was very unlikely to win at that point but it seemed early to wave the white flag. Barefield was not having a good game but his presence did open things up for others to get shots.

    Weird game. Very frustrating and bleak time for the program.

  24. #534
    I'm mystified by Battin in the starting lineup. He has a long way to go to become more than a spot up shooter. Last night, he couldn't fill that role. I haven't followed the Utes closely this year so I ask an honest question: can Battin become a Pac-12 player? What have any of you seen to assuage my concerns.

    Loved Charles Jones last night. We sure need his defense. I actually thought he drove well a few times and found some people. Agree that his shot didn't look good. Gach and Allen are both big positives but both need a lot of work on shooting/shooting form - especially Allen. If he doesn't put some significant work on his shot - especially getting rid of holding the ball out from his body as he rises to shoot - he'll just be an undersized inside player his final few years. Allen sure fills the stat sheet though.

    I totally agree with Blender on the need for a Vante Hendrix type player next season. We have a strong class coming in but none of them fit that description. Can Jones get there? I don't think he has the size or the shot. I see him as a high-energy off the bench player who helps Larry have that second unit of "junk-yard dogs" who defend and beat up opponents. I sure wish the first unit played that way all the time.
    Last edited by Utebiquitous; 01-11-2019 at 04:56 PM.

  25. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    I'm mystified by Battin in the starting lineup. He has a long way to go to become more than a spot up shooter. Last night, he couldn't fill that role. I haven't followed the Utes closely this year so I ask an honest question: can Battin become a Pac-12 player? What have any of you seen to assuage my concerns.
    It will all depend on his willingness to hit the weights and become stronger and more physical.

  26. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Mac's tenure as Utah HC ended because many fans simply could not see any sustained improvement and eventually stopped caring. One of his last games as HC was against UNLV and my estimate was that there were fewer than 20k fans in attendance. I get the feeling that is where things are with LK. Nobody goes. Nobody is interested. The U is offering lower bowl tickets for $8 and can't sell them. Something needs to change.
    It is interesting to think about where the LK-era program is heading. It's both full of promise and seemingly spinning its wheels. It's an odd combo of sentiments to feel. It's kind of how you feel when a new coach comes in to build up a broken program, and yet we're eight years into this regime.

    I still think back to the Poeltl sophomore season before we crapped the bed against Gonzaga. Besides a couple bumps along the way, it looked like LK had successfully pulled us out of the post-Majerus maelstrom. My sentiments were high. Then there was that weird two-year period where our recruiting just took a major dump and the team didn't reload.

    What that looks like today, three seasons after Poeltl left, is a team with upperclassmen that haven't blossomed and a bunch of young bucks who are taking their underclassman lumps. Admittedly it's so frustrating to be here 8 years into a coach's tenure. For the first time in the LK era I'm questioning if he's the guy. That Washington game was so hard to watch that I was still grousing about it and didn't go to the WSU game (which, ironically, probably would have gotten the Husky-beat-down taste out of my mouth).

    As UTEopia suggests, will fans run out of patience before this young core can pay off with post-season dividends? I expect nothing of note this year, which puts a lot of pressure on next year to show that this program is headed toward good places. I wonder what next year has to yield to satisfy fans and boosters? I don't think NIT will cut it.

    At this point, I expect this team to make the NCAA tourney the next three years in a row (with at least one of those making it past the first weekend). If that doesn't happen, I'll be let down.

  27. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by FountainOfUte View Post

    At this point, I expect this team to make the NCAA tourney the next three years in a row (with at least one of those making it past the first weekend). If that doesn't happen, I'll be let down.
    We are essentially in the same place we were when Taylor, Loveridge and Tucker were freshmen. I think you are setting yourself up for a letdown with expectations for NCAA's next year. Goch, Allen and Battin may have higher ceilings than those three, but do they have the same work ethic? Can Allen develop an outside shot as Loveridge did? Can Goch acquire a no prisoners attitude of Taylor and can Battin be a consistent 3 point threat? What does Thioune really bring to the table. We were told he was very raw. Is there a Delon Wright or Jacob Poetl in the incoming class? I'm not buying an NCAA appearance next year, maybe NIT. I hope I am wrong.

  28. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm thinking you'll be let down. When did Utah last make the tourney three years in a row? 2003-05? We had the future NBA #1 draft pick on our team for two of those.

    Here are our consecutive appearance streaks in the tournament:

    2 years 15-16
    4 years 02-05
    6 years 95-00
    3 years 77-79
    3 years 59-61
    2 years 55-56
    2 years 44-45
    Damn 2001; two future fringe nba bigs and we only made the nit?

  29. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Damn 2001; two future fringe nba bigs and we only made the nit?
    #FireRick

  30. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    We are essentially in the same place we were when Taylor, Loveridge and Tucker were freshmen. I think you are setting yourself up for a letdown with expectations for NCAA's next year. Goch, Allen and Battin may have higher ceilings than those three, but do they have the same work ethic? Can Allen develop an outside shot as Loveridge did? Can Goch acquire a no prisoners attitude of Taylor and can Battin be a consistent 3 point threat? What does Thioune really bring to the table. We were told he was very raw. Is there a Delon Wright or Jacob Poetl in the incoming class? I'm not buying an NCAA appearance next year, maybe NIT. I hope I am wrong.
    One of the signs of our program’s decline over the past 15 years is the reduced expectations of the fans. This should not be acceptable at Utah.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

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