Coffee and suicide

[Ma'ake]

Harvard just released a study indicating drinking coffee reduces the risk of suicide by about 50%.

Utah has a fairly high suicide rate, I'm sure from a variety of factors, but I'm pretty sure the coffee consumption rate is lower here. (Disclaimer: I own no stock in Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts or any other purveyor of coffee)

When I was a kid, we heard a lot of adverse stories about coffee, while the research in the past 10 years has been a lot more positive. I think the coffee and tea bans have become more like a sacrifice to buttress faith, like Catholics giving up something for Lent.

A LDS intellectual I work with said the ban on hot drinks was intended to keep the faithful out of coffee houses, where a lot of politics and other contentious issues were discussed. I have no idea of this is true, but it seems like the litmus test that drinking coffee and tea became in the 60s(?) might benefit from a course adjustment, in light of the new research and the suicide problem in Utah.

[concerned]

Harvard just released a study indicating drinking coffee reduces the risk of suicide by about 50%.

Utah has a fairly high suicide rate, I'm sure from a variety of factors, but I'm pretty sure the coffee consumption rate is lower here. (Disclaimer: I own no stock in Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts or any other purveyor of coffee)

When I was a kid, we heard a lot of adverse stories about coffee, while the research in the past 10 years has been a lot more positive. I think the coffee and tea bans have become more like a sacrifice to buttress faith, like Catholics giving up something for Lent.

A LDS intellectual I work with said the ban on hot drinks was intended to keep the faithful out of coffee houses, where a lot of politics and other contentious issues were discussed. I have no idea of this is true, but it seems like the litmus test that drinking coffee and tea became in the 60s(?) might benefit from a course adjustment, in light of the new research and the suicide problem in Utah.

IIRC, the health benefits of coffee are pretty well established; coffee does not even have to be drunk in moderation (like wine) to realize the benefits; the more the better. It reduces the risk of prostate and other cancers, diabetes, improves circulation, and reduces the risk of alzheimers and dementia. It does not lead to hypertension or increase the risk of heart attack.


Our bishop, off the record, said he thinks the church will never change the WOW, even though coffee is beneficial and everybody guzzles caffeine through regular and diet coke, etc., because it is now a badge of identity, of signifying worthiness, and being of the world but not in it (or the other way around; I can never remember which is which). Sort of like wearing white shirts on Sunday.

[Utah]

Totally off topic here, well maybe not totally, but I find it funny that the Word of Wisdom puts hot drinks, smoking and alcohol in the same vein as eating right and having a healthy diet, yet most of the congregation is overweight and will immediately ostracize someone who drinks...

Anyways, I'm done musing.

[Diehard Ute]

As someone who isn't LDS, the WOW are odd.

They seem to just be a throwback of tradition these days. I certainly don't think anyone can say they're representative of healthy living.

So, for those in the know, what is the point in 2013?

[Mormon Red Death]

As someone who isn't LDS, the WOW are odd.

They seem to just be a throwback of tradition these days. I certainly don't think anyone can say they're representative of healthy living.

So, for those in the know, what is the point in 2013?

We've done it this way since the 1920s so why stop?.... that's the point.

[concerned]

Well, they aren't representative of unhealthy living either. There are obvious and agreed upon negative health consequences to most substances in the word of wisdom. Some can have other obvious negative consequences as well.

I typically hear two responses to your question. The point is (1) to be obedient, prove our faith, set us apart, etc or (2) to not give up any bit of our agency to addictive substances.

Me, I'm certain that I would love the taste of coffee, but I'm quite happy to not need it to be able to get up in the morning or function in the afternoon. My wallet also appreciates how I follow the word of wisdom. Some people spend more on alcohol, tobacco, and coffee than I pay in tithing.

Some people probably spend more on ice cream, chocolate, and diet coke than you spend on tithing too.

[Diehard Ute]

Well, they aren't representative of unhealthy living either. There are obvious and agreed upon negative health consequences to most substances in the word of wisdom. Some can have other obvious negative consequences as well.

I typically hear two responses to your question. The point is (1) to be obedient, prove our faith, set us apart, etc or (2) to not give up any bit of our agency to addictive substances.

Me, I'm certain that I would love the taste of coffee, but I'm quite happy to not need it to be able to get up in the morning or function in the afternoon. My wallet also appreciates how I follow the word of wisdom. Some people spend more on alcohol, tobacco, and coffee than I pay in tithing.

Well, I think you're really ignoring reality if you think it's protecting you from "addictive substances"

Dr Pepper and Mt Dew (Not to mention energy drinks) contain as much if not more caffeine than coffee. And I would say those who guzzle soda are likely doing more damage to their bodies with an "addictive" substance than those who drink coffee. (This from someone who quit soda cold turkey 2 years ago and has seen a 25 lb weight drop)

If the addictive qualities are the point, seems the list should be expanded.

I really don't care, beyond the complete desire to control where I can buy a beer that some zealous folks have...which is an entirely different issue.

[Flystripper]

We've done it this way since the 1920s so why stop?.... that's the point.

good one.

[Utah]

Well, I think you're really ignoring reality if you think it's protecting you from "addictive substances"

Dr Pepper and Mt Dew (Not to mention energy drinks) contain as much if not more caffeine than coffee. And I would say those who guzzle soda are likely doing more damage to their bodies with an "addictive" substance than those who drink coffee. (This from someone who quit soda cold turkey 2 years ago and has seen a 25 lb weight drop)

If the addictive qualities are the point, seems the list should be expanded.

I really don't care, beyond the complete desire to control where I can buy a beer that some zealous folks have...which is an entirely different issue.

If you are addicted to Mt. Dew, you are breaking the WOW. If you are eating unhealthily, you are breaking the WOW. If you are smoking, you are breaking the WOW. Like I said above, I find it funny that we are so quick to judge those who drink coffee, tea, alcohol and smoke, but we are ok with eating poorly (which is against the WOW) and being obese.

The WOW is a perfect example of how in the church, there are rules that we follow, and rules that we ignore.

[SeattleUte]

Harvard just released a study indicating drinking coffee reduces the risk of suicide by about 50%.

Utah has a fairly high suicide rate, I'm sure from a variety of factors, but I'm pretty sure the coffee consumption rate is lower here. (Disclaimer: I own no stock in Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts or any other purveyor of coffee)

When I was a kid, we heard a lot of adverse stories about coffee, while the research in the past 10 years has been a lot more positive. I think the coffee and tea bans have become more like a sacrifice to buttress faith, like Catholics giving up something for Lent.

A LDS intellectual I work with said the ban on hot drinks was intended to keep the faithful out of coffee houses, where a lot of politics and other contentious issues were discussed. I have no idea of this is true, but it seems like the litmus test that drinking coffee and tea became in the 60s(?) might benefit from a course adjustment, in light of the new research and the suicide problem in Utah.

lol GREAT POST.

[mUUser]

This study, in conjunction with 2 similar studies, indicated caffeine, not coffee, per se, is responsible for the results. Caffeine from excedrin, energy chews/drinks and other sources would provide the same benefit.

Admittedly, other studies have shown the antioxidants in coffee are helpful in prevention of prostate disease and diabetes among other things. I wonder if those same results could be simulated from other foods rich in antioxidants like berries and tomatoes? Vitamin supplements? IDK.

[Two Utes]

This study, in conjunction with 2 similar studies, indicated caffeine, not coffee, per se, is responsible for the results. Caffeine from excedrin, energy chews/drinks and other sources would provide the same benefit.

Admittedly, other studies have shown the antioxidants in coffee are helpful in prevention of prostate disease and diabetes among other things. I wonder if those same results could be simulated from other foods rich in antioxidants like berries and tomatoes? Vitamin supplements? IDK.

So what is your point? You can get caffeine naturally through coffee but you should take it in artificial supplements instead because god would prefer that?

Coffee is generally good for you in most circumstances. The WofW is supposed to be a commandment for health.

[LA Ute]

This study, in conjunction with 2 similar studies, indicated caffeine, not coffee, per se, is responsible for the results. Caffeine from excedrin, energy chews/drinks and other sources would provide the same benefit.

Admittedly, other studies have shown the antioxidants in coffee are helpful in prevention of prostate disease and diabetes among other things. I wonder if those same results could be simulated from other foods rich in antioxidants like berries and tomatoes? Vitamin supplements? IDK.

I am sipping a diet Pepsi even as I read this post. I had no idea how much good I was doing myself.

[UtahFanSir]

Hi guys, my first post here. Want to thank LA Ute for inviting me to participate.

Back in the mid-1970s, the issue of LDS prohibition to alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee came up in some discussions I had. A history PhD I knew and a professor told me that while a general temperance movement was occurring and building at that time, the issue in SLC at the time was the control of trade for those substances. What I was told was that a lot of money was vacating the LDS community into the coffers of Jewish merchants. While the benefits of not consuming some of those is still good (tobacco, too much alcohol), the Word of Wisdom (there is some here) was a way to set the Saints apart (like the Jews don't eat pork or shellfish) and to keep the coin in-house.

I have always wondered about wine, alcohol, since we know Jesus drank it. And I serious doubt it was just alcohol-free grape juice. But I figured it is like the old joke the Baptists tell, "Yes, Jesus drank wine, but we sure would have liked him better if he hadn't."

In moderation, tea, coffee and some alcohol have proven medical benefits, but that is not the issue, the issue is difference, the hoop to jump through to belong, the group, identity, and a point of control.

[concerned]

I am sipping a diet Pepsi even as I read this post. I had no idea how much good I was doing myself.

your office has probably called off the suicide watch now.

[Diehard Ute]

the issue is difference, the hoop to jump through to belong, the group, identity, and a point of control.

So it's a country club without the golf course.....gotcha

[FountainOfUte]

Hi guys, my first post here. Want to thank LA Ute for inviting me to participate.

Back in the mid-1970s, the issue of LDS prohibition to alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee came up in some discussions I had. A history PhD I knew and a professor told me that while a general temperance movement was occurring and building at that time, the issue in SLC at the time was the control of trade for those substances. What I was told was that a lot of money was vacating the LDS community into the coffers of Jewish merchants. While the benefits of not consuming some of those is still good (tobacco, too much alcohol), the Word of Wisdom (there is some here) was a way to set the Saints apart (like the Jews don't eat pork or shellfish) and to keep the coin in-house.

I have always wondered about wine, alcohol, since we know Jesus drank it. And I serious doubt it was just alcohol-free grape juice. But I figured it is like the old joke the Baptists tell, "Yes, Jesus drank wine, but we sure would have liked him better if he hadn't."

In moderation, tea, coffee and some alcohol have proven medical benefits, but that is not the issue, the issue is difference, the hoop to jump through to belong, the group, identity, and a point of control.

I don't think I'm following what you're saying about the WOW and Jewish merchants. The WoW was revealed 14 years before even the very first Mormons entered the Salt Lake Valley. So its initial revelation had nothing to do with economic issues. Maybe that was woven into it a couple decades later when Mormons had significantly populated SLC and established a dynamic economy of their own. I have no idea. I DO know it started as a suggestion or guideline and some parts of it have become more dogmatic and commandment-based over time.

As an "active LDS" myself, I definitely see the bending line that is drawn in regard to the ecclesiastical and cultural enforcement of the WoW. For a temple recommend, yes, I'm asked if I follow the WoW. I know what they mean. They want to know if I consume/abuse alcohol, tobacco and drugs. They frankly couldn't care less how much meat I eat or in what season I eat it. They don't care about the abundance in which I eat fruit and grains. So, yeah, I get that there's a "this, not that" approach to the WoW.

I personally do believe that the WoW is rooted in true revelation. I also think we make a lot of presumptions about it and what was intended from it. For all that's said about it from various pulpits, it's very possible that we *still* don't know *all* of God's intention behind it aside from the obvious. On the other hand, maybe it's just as simple as it appears and we read way too much into what was otherwise some high-level health tips from the heavens.

I take two things from it:
1) All of it is good advice. Take care of your body. Consume good things and don't abuse anything.
2) Regarding WoW expectations for a temple recommend, if the prophet of the church feels inspired/inclined to set certain guidelines about how a Mormon should live to hold/keep a temple recommend, that's his prerogative and all that means is that I have a choice to make. I'm pretty sure that today if I told my bishop that I ate meat in times other than winter that he'd probably get a good chuckle out of it as he's signing my recommend. It is what it is. To me, it's not worth getting hung up about. You make your choice, then you live your life. You like Bud Light more than a temple recommend? Knock yourself out. But arbitrary or not, we all know what's expected for a temple recommend.

[LA Ute]

Hi guys, my first post here. Want to thank LA Ute for inviting me to participate.

Back in the mid-1970s, the issue of LDS prohibition to alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee came up in some discussions I had. A history PhD I knew and a professor told me that while a general temperance movement was occurring and building at that time, the issue in SLC at the time was the control of trade for those substances. What I was told was that a lot of money was vacating the LDS community into the coffers of Jewish merchants. While the benefits of not consuming some of those is still good (tobacco, too much alcohol), the Word of Wisdom (there is some here) was a way to set the Saints apart (like the Jews don't eat pork or shellfish) and to keep the coin in-house.

I have always wondered about wine, alcohol, since we know Jesus drank it. And I serious doubt it was just alcohol-free grape juice. But I figured it is like the old joke the Baptists tell, "Yes, Jesus drank wine, but we sure would have liked him better if he hadn't."

In moderation, tea, coffee and some alcohol have proven medical benefits, but that is not the issue, the issue is difference, the hoop to jump through to belong, the group, identity, and a point of control.

Welcome, UtahFanSir. May you post here often and for a long time to come.

[Damage U]

But isn't too much salt bad for you?

Reading through this post a thought came to me, but I wasn't sure if I should post it here or the "can't quit you" thread. Since my smart ass reply to sancho has me here, then I'll post it here.
If caffeine helps keep suicide away then maybe we should get the good folks down at the zoob factory to keep the caffine ban. (not sure if you can now buy caffeine laced drinks on campus or you have to smuggle it in from the outskirts of Provo)

And just to throw another match on the fire. Not too long ago there were studies on how great cigarettes were for you. Doctors even endorsed them. Now even more recently we've been told that the great benefits of fish oil aren't really that great and my cause prostate cancer.

[LA Ute]

Physicians recommend that bipolar patients avoid consumption of caffeinated substances such as coffee. Caffeine disrupts bipolar patients' sleep cycles, contributing to attacks of mania and hypomania. A 2009 study uncovered an even more alarming finding. It showed that drinking coffee appears to increase suicide attempts among bipolar patients.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/90...#ixzz2e25sa7kt

[cald22well]

I think the main point, or question really, that I have is why is it ok that some commandments and doctrine change with the world while others are steadfast? The explanation that my seminary teacher gave regarding meat is that the word was given in a time when man didn't have the ability to keep and store meat for long periods. Since that's not an issue now, we're free to eat meat in any season and eat it multiple times a day.

As 'hot drinks' change and more studies report the health benefits, why can't the ban be changed or even clarified by modern revelation? What about using the coffee bean or tea leaf in ways other than for a hot drink. What about iced coffees and frapacinos? What about soda and energy drinks? As a church with a modern prophet, it seems to me that modern revelation on the issue is more than feasible.

One last thing (that is more of an aside) that I always found interesting is is from D&C 89:17 "Nevertheless, wheat for man, corn....and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also for other grain. It seems to me that this could easily be interpreted as beer being acceptable. Afterall, it says wine and and strong drink which is taken to mean alcohol, but could simply mean hard liquor.

Ultimately, I am no longer LDS and it doesn't impact my life and as Fountain pointed out, active LDS members have to make their decisions based off of what expectations, not necessarily what they believe. I just think that it is a good example of not necessarily picking and choosing from scripture, but of how some doctrine becomes irrelevant for one reason or another.

[Scratch]

I think the main point, or question really, that I have is why is it ok that some commandments and doctrine change with the world while others are steadfast? The explanation that my seminary teacher gave regarding meat is that the word was given in a time when man didn't have the ability to keep and store meat for long periods. Since that's not an issue now, we're free to eat meat in any season and eat it multiple times a day.

The short answer is that doctrines are unchanging. What changes are the principles and actions that are used at various times to further the unchanging doctrines.