My point is simple--the people who the BYU guys report to are telling Bronco to tie the two together and to set apart BYU football from the others. He's doing it. Popinga is simply telling it like it is. The leaders want this. Don't shoot the messengers (Popinga and Bronconi)Originally Posted by UTEopia
Last edited by Two Utes; 08-22-2013 at 04:23 PM.
And the last thing I'll say about this: I've heard 100 times the old saying "it's not the church it's the people in the church" In this instance, it's the church.
If they were really serious about BYU football as a missionary tool... They should get the word out to their fans to stop all their douche-baggery. That's gotta be dickin' up the effort, ya know.
Are they going to bash people into conversion?
They talk a good game, but their actions say something else.
It's like a gay orgy over there, I guess it's cool for some folks... but I have no interest.
Last edited by Devildog; 08-22-2013 at 04:38 PM.
Problem is, there is a broad way to interpret that. I mean, was that charge any different during the LaVell era? And yet BYU football had a MUCH different feel back then. They just went out with their "Ah, shucks!" persona and played straight up football. Sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but it wasn't directly connected to "living right on and off the field" and all of that stuff that's sprouted up in the last decade. The missionary aspect of the football team was just putting those darn weird Mormons in a normal-as-apple-pie scenario -- the American football field -- and showing the world that Mormons put their cleats on one foot at a time, too. The "lesson," trite as this sounds is that "Hey, for being weird, Mormons are mostly normal!"
The hope, I always thought, was that BYU's actions would speak for themselves as to the values of the LDS church; THAT would be the message. It was about presenting one of the many normal sides of Mormonism. Now that's all been torn down with the Bronco brand of BYU football.
There's a faction of members in the church that wears "Mormon peculiarity" as a badge of honor and they love to see that reflected by BYU's football team. I would argue though that infusing that overt peculiarity into the football team is having the opposite effect toward the school's/team's mission. Let the gospel be weird. Let the football be normal.
Yes. This ^^^.
Last edited by FountainOfUte; 08-22-2013 at 08:56 PM.
I think you can trace some of this “Zoobish” type behavior to some norms within the LDS Church. Growing up in the church I was taught that we were NEVER to question our leaders, whether it was our Bishop, EQ President or Young Men’s Leader whatever they said in the capacity of their leadership was unquestioning gospel. The reason given is that they were called of God, and are given personal revelation in accordance with their calling. I think that works well in most religious settings, but is scary dangerous outside of it.
It seems like Brady Poppinga (or as the kids like to call him ... B-POP), Roger Reid and others take this principle to an extreme. They transfer this principle to other areas in their lives that are closely related to religion. Whether it’s a professor at an LDS Religious Institution, a friendly LDS financial planner/advisor MLM type (with guaranteed 25% annual investment returns), or a head coach of the football team, they view a similar line of LDS Church Authority (when none exists). I think that is why people like B-POP or others are vehemently defending Bronco’s position on coaching decisions or jersey’s, he’s been conditioned to not question those in authority especially when it has any religious correlation.
Last edited by Scorcho; 08-22-2013 at 07:39 PM.
There are lots of weird BYU fans. They roam predominantly on CB and a few on the old CUF but to some of us, this is just a great damn rivalry and I want to beat the shit out of the U...just because. No religion involved. Hell, most of you are Mormon.
Good luck, but I hope we destroy you.
Love,
Viking
Agreed about pretty much everything except who wins. And the rivalry is just getting too ugly for my liking, so I suppose I disagree that it's a great damn rivalry and just a damn rivalry.
"Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." - Red Smith
If the zoobs were all like you I'd say keep the game on the schedule. But I hope we pummel you just the same.
Relax, your team always wins, even when Utah scores more points.
"It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant
I come to this thread just to read Utah's posts.
It is a fun thread.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
It tickles me that this is still your #1 thread over here.
It tickles me that the big 12 expansion thread is #1 on cuf
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"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
Anything but that godawful Lakers thread.
I'm not very good with numbers, but I would guess there are 20-30 posts here on other threads for every 1 post on this one.
I would also guess that you BYU fans are among the top posters on this thread. I suppose I could figure out where your board is, go there, post every day in a thread about herpes,and then point out that the herpes thread is your #1.
The thread was started by a Ute. But I won't accuse Senioritis of having herpes.
Last edited by tooblue; 12-18-2013 at 07:39 PM.
Sancho, you seem really tightly wound. You are becoming one of my favorites here.
Your board needs supervision. Don't you realize what is going on over there? For heaven's sake, man, get back there and take care of matters before something terrible happens!
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I'm headed down to Tempe, but a quick diversion on the BYU dumpster fire status:
The dumpster fire rages on, it's melted the vinyl decorative fence around it, the 2x4s that keep it from rolling away are charcoal, and the dumpster is headed down the street toward Tom Holmoe's house.
- Evidently Brian Logan (their DB of a few years ago) is picking Middle Tennessee, 42-21
- According to "Monte", a local Utah radio guy, Tom Holmoe held a meeting with the players, and re-iterated his support for Bronco, to which some players expressed great disappointment and a desire to quit football.
- Tom Holmoe (who I don't really have anything against - I think he's a decent guy) is a SF Giants fan, it appears, and tweeted out about the World Series:
TH: "Last name Ever, first name Greatest - Madison Bumgarner!" (the Giants great pitcher)
Random Fan: "Hey Tom, maybe you should be working on your football team"
TH: "I see you're a Dodgers fan, so I understand your anger"
Fan: "I'm also a BYU football fan, so now you understand my anger even better!"
As Bill Cosby would advise, Tom... Tom... Tom... don't lean into the punches!
I want to take a moment out of my Stanford victory celebration to congratulate BYU on becoming bowl eligible. Must taste sweet to prove all those doubters wrong.
This has been one hell of a season, especially for Ute fans who've been around long enough to remember how utterly frustrating and demeaning it was in the bad old days.
Not playing BYU this year or next is not just a well-timed break in the rivalry, it gives both fan bases a chance to re-evaluate, a lot of things.
We're now in a position in this rivalry we previously resented deeply, when the shoe was on the other foot. And it's not just a reversal of fortunes, it's two teams finding what are (increasingly clear) different levels in the CFB landscape.
Things are changing before our eyes. We're going to have opportunities to be unlike who we resented, previously.
Look at this post: http://www.cougarboard.com/board/mes...ml?id=13296731
The Utah tent is getting bigger. I've completely understood Chris Hill's reluctance on stadium expansion. I don't think he ever really considered the need for a bigger tent, from folks we never guessed would be interested in joining.
The P5 / G5 separation gives these people some cover to give us some support. Not playing them next year gives them more cover.
How many people go to Colorado Rockies games for no other reason than it's the major leagues?
Guess what? We're the ML CFB franchise in Utah, with a couple of interesting AAA teams also in the market. The sands in the hourglass are shifting.
So, I dug through my spreadsheets and here is how Wilson and Hill stack up:
I skipped 2012, because TW only played vs P5 and TH only played against mid majors (MM).
TW vs P5 2013: 58%, 267 yards, 2 TD, 3 INT, 6 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs P5 2013: 46%, 210 yards, .71 TD, .85 INT, 5.5 yards/rush attempt, .85 TD/game
in 2013, vs P5 competition, Wilson was the better QB when Wilson was healthy.
TW vs MM 2013: 67%, 280 yards/gm, 2 TD, 0 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs MM 2013: 66%, 235 yards/gm, 2 TD, 1 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 0.8 TD/game
Again, TW was the better QB vs MM comp.
TW vs P5 2014: 60%, 173 yards, 1 TD, 0.5 INT, 1 yard/rush attempt, 0 TD/game
TH vs P5 2014: 51%, 215 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
Would you definitely take Hill over Wilson? I'm not so sure. Kind of a toss up.
TW vs MM 2014: 64%, 201 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs MM 2014: 70%, 202 yards, 1.5 TD, 0.667 INT, 6 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
Again, where is Hill "clearly" the better QB? Kind of a toss up.
Career averages:
TW vs P5: 60%, 171 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 1.42 yards/rush attempt, 0.315 TD/game
TH vs P5: 49%, 204 yards, 0.77 TD, 0.77 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TW vs MM: 65%, 240 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 5.5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs MM: 66%, 213 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT, 5.5 yards/rush attempt, .77 TD/game
TW vs P5: 9-10
TH vs P5: 4-5
TW vs MM: 6-0
TH vs MM: 9-0
Utah's record years TW started: 5-7, 5-7, 9-4 (final ranking of 21)
BYU's record years TH started: 8-5, 8-5, 8-5
Now, who knows what BYU could have done last year if Hill had stayed healthy. That being said, who knows how Utah could have been in 2013 if Wilson had stayed healthy. We were 4-2 and had just beat #5 Stanford. So, the point is injuries happen.
Taysom Hill is a product of some highlight reels and subpar competition. Statistically, he is not heads and shoulders above Wilson. Like I said, I'm not sure I trade Hill for Wilson. They both have their ups and downs. Wilson is a better passer. Hill is a better runner. Don't get suckered into some highlights and stats padded by mid-majors. Neither one is a very good QB.
tl/dr
They have eerily, identical stats. Neither one is a great QB, and neither one is a heisman QB. Wilson has led a top 25 team, Hill has not. That is about the only number that is different between the two.
How convenient of you to give a half-painted canvas of Hill's rushing statistics. He ran for 1,344 yards in 2013, a figure that would rank fourth all-time at Utah for single-season rushing. He might very well rank higher if you use the NFL model for rushing yards, which takes sacks surrendered and applies it to passing yards, not rushing yards. His 259 rushing yards against Texas that year would be a Utah single-game school record. If Hill has another 2013-like rushing season this year, he would threaten the career rushing mark at Utah (3,219, Eddie Johnson).
No one, and I mean no one, with any credibility in the national CFB sporting press would dare attempt to make the argument you're trying to make. They would get laughed out of the room. Hill's running ability is miles ahead of whatever Wilson's best quality is, and as you've clearly shown, there's not a lot of separation between both as passers. Eerily, identical stats? That's fanboy garbage right there. Find me the stat in which Wilson ranks as an all-timer like Hill has with rushing.
Pat: I'm paying attention! Trust me on that! I'm proud DB is a legit Heisman candidate. I don't think he'll win it (barring a magical Utah season that no one here is predicting or even hoping for).
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Why I think the Kalani experiment will blow up in BYU's face:
1 - Kalani has little to no experience around him. First time HC, first time OC/QB coach/college coach, first time DC.
2 - I don't like the way Ty is talking. Every interview I hear him in, it is "I hired" and "I chose to do" and "I have decided". That is too much power for an OC, especially when you consider his legacy at BYU, the stories being told about him in the NFL in BYU circles (namely that he developed every QB that had success the last 20 years), and his race.
3 - I don't like that Kalani is moving all of this talent from the offense to the defense. This bothers me the most. Kalani is setting himself up to fail. What happens if BYU goes 6-6 the next three years? What if three years from now, Kalani's HC record is 18-18 in the regular season? Is he a failure? Is he a success? Well, it all depends on the scores of the games. If Kalani is 18-18 and his average score is 17-16, then Kalani is a success and Ty is a failure. Then you fire Ty, and hire another OC (cheaper) and spend the rest of the money on real college coaches.
If the average score is 35-36 and Kalani is 18-18, well, then Kalani is the problem and it is time to fire Kalani and promote Ty to head coach, because obviously Ty knows what is going on and he will fix every problem BYU has.
If I'm Kalani, I move everyone to the defensive side of the ball. Your recruiting classes suck compared to your schedule. You have 6 P5 teams, If you were in the PAC-12, you'd have the 13th ranked class. You just don't have enough talent to spread it evenly throughout your program. You need to load up one side and create a brand, then branch out from there....just like Kyle did. Kyle put everyone on defense, and built from there. Now, Kyle has enough talent, that some of it can bleed from the defense over to the offense (for example, see Butler-Byrd moving back to the offense. With Allen performing so well last year, you can move B-B back to the offense).
His schedule is too tough, Ty is too beloved, he is taking too much away from his defense, and he doesn't have the talent needed to succeed.
Bronco was the best coach BYU has ever had. And they ran him out of town. What are the odds that Sitaki, with no experienced coaches around him, will be better?
Good news is, we know who our LB coach will be in 4 years when Scalley gets a HC job and Ena gets promoted to our DC. Maybe Scalley will replace Kalani down in Provo.
It'll be interesting to see how much patience the administration and fan base has with them. I think they will struggle for a couple of years while they figure it out.
I think if the offense does well and the defense struggles, he will have a very, very short lease.
That's why if I were Kalani, I'd move all the talent to defense. His job depends on the defense doing well. If not, Ty will be right there to take over as HC.
I went and looked back at BYU vs Oregon State's talent last year:
The last 3 years, OSU has recruited about 4 spots higher than BYU according to Rivals, Scout and 247.
Over the last 5 years, OSU has recruited about 10 spots higher than BYU according to Rivals, Scout and 247.
So, it's not like Kalani is leaving a team devoid of talent and taking over some juggernaut. His defense is about as stocked at OSU's.
I mentioned this on Utefans, but Bronco's last 5 years in the MWC, he played 24 P5 teams and won 50 games.
Boise's first five years in the MWC, they played 12 P5 teams and won 52 games.
Bronco is a completely underrated football coach. So is Anae. Don't believe me? Look at what happened the last time BYU had a phenom freshman QB and they brought on their former QB genius coach to be OC.
What am I saying? It wouldn't shock me if Kalani completely FELL on his face this fall. He has no experience around him in the OC and DC positions, his schedule is just as tough if not tougher than last year (at least the first 6 games, his schedule get DRAMATICALLY weaker after that), and he is moving talent from defense to the offense.
I spotted this post on CB a couple of days ago by OxCoug. Sound logic behind this optimism.
In 2005 Kyle Whittingham was a brand new HC who had been a DC. Gary Andersen was
a guy who had been on staff at Utah, was now hitting his first year as an FBS DC, and previously spent one lame losing year at ..... Southern Utah University. Andy Ludwig had a couple of years of experience...as a pre-national Oregon OC and a Fresno State OC.
Now to clarify - I'm NOT suggesting that there is a direct parallel - this group of BYU coaches is 2x as good as that group of Ute coaches - I'm just making a laughing aside at some of the Ute fans I see posting drunk idiot stuff about how concerned they are that BYU coaches aren't more experienced.
Ty Detmer isn't Andy Ludwig. He may be a first time college OC - but how many first time college OCs come with the reverence of Steve Young and Brett Favre, the endorsements of Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid and Steve Mariucci, and 20 years growing up around coaches?
Ed Lamb has FAR more credibility right now than Gary Andersen did in 2005. Kalani has as much as Kyle did. Ty has more, on net than Ludwig did. Tuiaki himself inexperienced but has credibility.
The "experience" card is overplayed. BYU is in good shape.
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