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Thread: I Wish I Knew How to Quit You - The BYU Sports Thread

  1. #1591
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    you could just as easily conclude that Holmoe is being disingenuous. Holmoe already knows that November and October games are out of the question, and yet he is trying to weasel his way in there.

    Whitt has stated on several occasions that he doesn't want the BYU game during conference play.
    I think they are both being disingenous, each could have written the other's emails, they are just going through the motions and I doubt any real negotiation is going on.
    Last edited by concerned; 02-25-2015 at 03:00 PM.

  2. #1592
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Disagree. Our goal should be to win the South. Every year. I'll take a South crown (and the chance to play for more), one bowl year and three bowl-less years in every five as opposed to five years in which we go anywhere between 9-3 and 6-6.
    Agree that our goal should be to win the South, but the OOC shedule doesnt have anything to do with that--only with a bowl game or playoff.
    Last edited by concerned; 02-25-2015 at 03:03 PM.

  3. #1593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    a Michigan type OOC game isn't needed as long as the PAC-12 keeps 5-6 teams in the top 25 every year, and I don't see that changing. If the PAC-12 had an 8 game conference schedule then I could see adding a marque opponent.
    The majority of the conference doesn't see it that way and is still getting one P5 on the schedule every year. Only the Washington schools and Arizona have non-con skeds post 2015 that resemble what Utah has. Everyone else is scheduling up.

  4. #1594
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Agree that our goal should be to win the South, but the OOC shedule doesnt have anything to do with that--only with a bowl game or playoff.
    Well, we should be scheduling OOC with a playoff in mind, not with being bowl eligible.

  5. #1595
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Well, we should be scheduling OOC with a playoff in mind, not with being bowl eligible.
    I don't know. We missed bowl games for two years, and the mob was ready to get rid of one of the better coaches in the conference. Being bowl eligible matters a lot.

    I think everyone would like the excitement of having a P5 on the schedule. It may or may not be the best thing to do in terms of bowl games or playoffs.

    BYU is obviously a different question altogether. They are not a P5, so we don't get any points there. They are traditionally among the stronger G5, so we still get some SOS credit for playing them. With BYU, it really boils down to how much one values the tradition and rivalry.

  6. #1596
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Well, we should be scheduling OOC with a playoff in mind, not with being bowl eligible.
    I want new experiences in the OOC games. The trip to Michigan this year was awesome.

    I never want to see another FCS team on the schedule. It is a waste of a game. We can makw possible exceptions for local teams (Weber, SUU), but only very rarely.

    I like the idea of rotating byup and USU. Play each one 4 times per decade. Playing either one annually is incredibly boring, and playing both the same year is even worse.

    I wish we could buy out the SUU type games on the schedule. I would love to get some H-and-H series set up with ACC, SEC, Big-12 conference teams, even just the lower tier-teams. We might need to expand RES before bigger teams will come, but maybe they will follow Michigan's lead. Iowa State previously had a deal with us, but we had to buy out the return. Maybe Texas Tech or A&M would be interested. That way I could stay with relatives and go to the game.

    I might like to see some of the old MWC/WAC foes on the schedule again. It was fun to see CSU again. It might be nice to play SDSU,

    The one team we should be 'scared' to put on the schedule is Boise State. They just have Whitt's number for some reason.

    If by some magical reason hell freezes over and The BYU of Provo gets invited to the Big-12 I still won't get excited about playing them.

  7. #1597
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    With BYU, it really boils down to how much one values the tradition and rivalry.
    You nailed it. That's why I am so ambivalent about the whole thing.



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  8. #1598
    Out of conference schedule is not why Baylor or TCU didn't make the playoff. They were left out because they don't play a conference championship game.

    There is no advantage to playing BYU. They're not a P5 school so they won't give us any credit for beating them. Every once in a while they might beat us, and that would be the same as losing to any other crappy G5 school as far as the playoff committee is concerned.

    I'd rather play a real P5 school. And if we can't schedule one, which I doubt will ever be a problem, then just schedule a G5 school from a hot recruiting area.
    Last edited by utefan; 02-26-2015 at 06:28 AM.

  9. #1599
    Quote Originally Posted by utefan View Post
    Out of conference schedule is not why Baylor or TCU didn't make the playoff. They were left out because they don't play a conference championship game.
    They were left out because their name is not The Ohio State University.

  10. #1600
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    Quote Originally Posted by utefan View Post
    Out of conference schedule is not why Baylor or TCU didn't make the playoff. They were left out because they don't play a conference championship game.

    There is no advantage to playing BYU. They're not a P5 school so they won't give us any credit for beating them. Every once in a while they might beat us, and that would be the same as losing to any other crappy G5 school as far as the playoff committee is concerned.

    I'd rather play a real P5 school. And if we can't schedule one, which I doubt will ever be a problem, then just schedule a G5 school from a hot recruiting area.
    The ACC views BYU as a P5 school. Given how many Pac-12 teams are on BYU's schedule in the near future, I'd bet if a vote came up today amongst ADs on how to view BYU, it would overwhelmingly give BYU that status. Less certain is if such a vote would ever come up.

    Five years into being in the Pac-12, we have all of one deal with a P5 school. From that, I can only draw two conclusions:

    1. We're lousy negotiators. But since we didn't have this problem in the MWC, I can't wrap my arms around it.

    2. It's deliberate. And I can't accept the watered-down non-con in a playoff era. There's zero justification for it unless, like I've said before, positioning your team to make the playoff just isn't that important. (Also, is Northern Illinois located in a "hot recruiting area"?)

    To me, this debate isn't over unless one of two things happens: We see one P5 on the schedule annually, or BYU is recognized by our league as a P5 worthy team.

  11. #1601
    I am confused by this debate......

    A Utah team with an OOC slate of Southern utah, Nevada, and Iowa State (just three random teams, one P5 one G5 and one FCS) gets into the playoffs 100% of the time at 13-0 and 90-95% of the time at 12-1, assuming a conference championship game win.

    Likewise, A Utah team with an OOC slate of Ohio State, Boise State, and TCU is likely on the bubble at absolute best at 11-2.

    OOC is such a marginal part of this, Im really not sure why we are going back and forth on it.

  12. #1602
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    2. It's deliberate. And I can't accept the watered-down non-con in a playoff era. There's zero justification for it unless, like I've said before, positioning your team to make the playoff just isn't that important. (Also, is Northern Illinois located in a "hot recruiting area"?)
    I get the feeling you have decided to hunker down and defend this idea to the death. But it's just not true. Going easy on OOC appears to be a reasonable strategy to make the playoff. If FSU had lost any of those 6 games it should have lost, Baylor gets into the playoff. Mississippi State had the worst OOC schedule of anyone, but they were a lock for the playoff until they lost a 2nd SEC game. If Oregon had replaced Michigan State with Michigan Tech, they still would have been in the playoff.

    That said, I do agree with you. I'd sacrifice our bowl chances in order to have one P5 or BYU/BSU on the schedule each year. I'm not sure that's what's best for the program, but as a fan, I'm greedy.

  13. #1603
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    The ACC views BYU as a P5 school. Given how many Pac-12 teams are on BYU's schedule in the near future, I'd bet if a vote came up today amongst ADs on how to view BYU, it would overwhelmingly give BYU that status. Less certain is if such a vote would ever come up.

    Five years into being in the Pac-12, we have all of one deal with a P5 school. From that, I can only draw two conclusions:

    1. We're lousy negotiators. But since we didn't have this problem in the MWC, I can't wrap my arms around it.

    2. It's deliberate. And I can't accept the watered-down non-con in a playoff era. There's zero justification for it unless, like I've said before, positioning your team to make the playoff just isn't that important. (Also, is Northern Illinois located in a "hot recruiting area"?)

    To me, this debate isn't over unless one of two things happens: We see one P5 on the schedule annually, or BYU is recognized by our league as a P5 worthy team.
    Nobody cares what the ACC says. They're just changing their stance on BYU (who they previously classified as a G5) because they took a lot of heat for a week schedule with Florida State. That and Notre Dame is halfway in their conference, so they threw BYU a bone.

    The SEC has stated that BYU is a G5 school. I'm sure we can all agree that what the SEC says carries a lot more weight than what the ACC says.

    I am totally fine with our scheduling. We play 9 conference games, plus a potential conference championship game. That is 10 P5 games. If we schedule another P5 team that's 11, which would put us at as many or more than anyone else.

    BYU is not a P5 team. We'd get no more credit for beating them than we'd get for beating Houston, Memphis, San Diego State, Central Florida, or any other G5 school. And any of those schools bring the advantages of recruiting the area, plus they don't bring the alligator rolls, the questionable replay booth officials, and all the other baggage that comes with BYU.

    We did not play BYU last year, and we would have absolutely been in the playoff if we'd won a few more games.

  14. #1604
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    I am confused by this debate......

    A Utah team with an OOC slate of Southern utah, Nevada, and Iowa State (just three random teams, one P5 one G5 and one FCS) gets into the playoffs 100% of the time at 13-0 and 90-95% of the time at 12-1, assuming a conference championship game win.

    Likewise, A Utah team with an OOC slate of Ohio State, Boise State, and TCU is likely on the bubble at absolute best at 11-2.

    OOC is such a marginal part of this, Im really not sure why we are going back and forth on it.
    This. There is no debate. OOC scheduling in pretty close to 100% irrelevant.

    How about this:

    Since joining the PAC-12, Utah is one of three teams to have ZERO ESPN top 300 recruits sign with them.

    Until we get kids like that, talking about playoffs is silly. Until we win 9+ most years and appear in the PAC-12 title game, we aren't getting kids like that.

    We are sooooooo far away from needing to beef up our OOC schedule it's pathetic. It's not even a debate.

    We need 7 home games every year. We need 9 wins every year. This isn't rocket science.

  15. #1605
    Quote Originally Posted by utefan View Post
    Nobody cares what the ACC says.
    The ACC saying BYU counts as P5 is like me saying that pumpkin pie counts as my daily serving of fruit.

    P5 has a very precise definition - a team in either the ACC, Big10, Big12, Pac-12 or SEC. Indianapolis is not a state, pi is not an integer, Dame Edna is not a woman, and BYU is not a P5.

    I wish we had a "schedule day" every May. Every P5 would have one empty date on its calendar (in week 2), and on "schedule day," we all gather round the TV to watch a scheduling lottery in which every P5 is lined up with a random P5 opponent. Tell me that wouldn't have huge ratings. It would be like the NFL draft or Selection Sunday. Some years, Utah gets lined up with Rutgers. Some years, we get Ohio State.

  16. #1606
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I wish we had a "schedule day" every May. Every P5 would have one empty date on its calendar (in week 2), and on "schedule day," we all gather round the TV to watch a scheduling lottery in which every P5 is lined up with a random P5 opponent. Tell me that wouldn't have huge ratings. It would be like the NFL draft or Selection Sunday. Some years, Utah gets lined up with Rutgers. Some years, we get Ohio State.
    Sancho for president! You have my vote.

  17. #1607
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    The ACC saying BYU counts as P5 is like me saying that pumpkin pie counts as my daily serving of fruit.

    P5 has a very precise definition - a team in either the ACC, Big10, Big12, Pac-12 or SEC. Indianapolis is not a state, pi is not an integer, Dame Edna is not a woman, and BYU is not a P5.

    I wish we had a "schedule day" every May. Every P5 would have one empty date on its calendar (in week 2), and on "schedule day," we all gather round the TV to watch a scheduling lottery in which every P5 is lined up with a random P5 opponent. Tell me that wouldn't have huge ratings. It would be like the NFL draft or Selection Sunday. Some years, Utah gets lined up with Rutgers. Some years, we get Ohio State.
    I think that's a hell of an idea. The NFL has been doing this for years, although the formula for determining the teams is set in stone. The Schedule Release Show just lines up the opponents and gives them a date and time. The P5s could easily do this and further lock out the G5s.

  18. #1608
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I think that's a hell of an idea. The NFL has been doing this for years, although the formula for determining the teams is set in stone. The Schedule Release Show just lines up the opponents and gives them a date and time. The P5s could easily do this and further lock out the G5s.
    I love this idea as well, but I think you'd have to have some way to control home and away to keep that even and predictable. Sancho, figure out how that will work. Stat.

  19. #1609
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    You're all are so full of sh** your eyes are brown. Simply posting in this thread undermines and contradicts any insistence that even one of you never wants Utah to play BYU again. lol Here's a challenge for y'all and the Board Oligarchs: If it is truly the wish of the smattering of Utah fans posting here, to never play BYU again, then close this thread permanently. Delete it in it's entirety. Or, in the words of a famous tv ad from yester-year: wash that BYU man right out of your hair.

    Until that happens, Utah and it's fans, including every poster on this site will never be anything more than "little brother."
    I agree with tooblue's general sentiment that for Utah fans to want the rivalry to disappear is lame, and disingenuous. The BYU-Utah rivalry is part of the identity of both schools at this point.

    To cease rivalry play on the field will just instigate a cold war pissing contest. I also think tooblue is right that this thread is just evidence of the denial some are in over "moving beyond" the BYU rivalry. He comes over here and stirs the pot a little and the thread grows by 5 pages. Seriously, if we were all "over them" his comments would go unanswered, but we are not, so they don't.

    I love the rivalry. Love it. I think it is great for the local sports scene. I think it adds to fun of living in Utah. I think if you are consumed by the ugly aspects of the rivalry, it is probably a reflection on yourself more-so than the rivalry.

    Also, I even tend to agree with tooblue about being little brother. After hitting my physical prime and starting to pass it, I am happy to consider Utah as younger and more attractive than BYU! Maybe youth is why Utah athletics are leaving BYU in the dust?

  20. #1610
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I get the feeling you have decided to hunker down and defend this idea to the death. But it's just not true. Going easy on OOC appears to be a reasonable strategy to make the playoff. If FSU had lost any of those 6 games it should have lost, Baylor gets into the playoff. Mississippi State had the worst OOC schedule of anyone, but they were a lock for the playoff until they lost a 2nd SEC game. If Oregon had replaced Michigan State with Michigan Tech, they still would have been in the playoff.

    That said, I do agree with you. I'd sacrifice our bowl chances in order to have one P5 or BYU/BSU on the schedule each year. I'm not sure that's what's best for the program, but as a fan, I'm greedy.
    We have one year of playoff results under our belts. I have my stance, you have yours on how significant OOC is, whether it hurt Baylor, etc. However, the trend in college football appears to be scheduling up by getting that one P5 team on your non-conference schedule. Go to fbschedules.com and see what our fellow P5 schools are doing. There are some really appealing inter-sectional matchups. Ohio State has TCU on the docket for a home-and-home. Penn State is getting Pitt and Syracuse back on the schedule. USC is playing Alabama. Minnesota even has two Pac-12 schools on the docket in coming years (Oregon State and Colorado). Why can't Utah get Purdue or Iowa on the slate?

    There's no point in debating the significance of the OOC. We've all made our stances clear on this. But Utah is a massive outlier when it comes to scheduling OOC. There might be five teams in P5 that don't have a fellow P5 school in their OOC after 2015. Now, maybe we truly are reinventing the wheel, and after 5-6 years of playoff committee talk and action, we'll see that our course of action is best as far as the playoff is concerned. Consensus today amongst P5s, however, strongly suggests we're doing it wrong. They're all scrambling to get a P5 on the schedule most of the time. Utah doesn't even have one after this year.

  21. #1611
    Quote Originally Posted by wally View Post
    I agree with tooblue's general sentiment that for Utah fans to want the rivalry to disappear is lame, and disingenuous. The BYU-Utah rivalry is part of the identity of both schools at this point.

    To cease rivalry play on the field will just instigate a cold war pissing contest. I also think tooblue is right that this thread is just evidence of the denial some are in over "moving beyond" the BYU rivalry. He comes over here and stirs the pot a little and the thread grows by 5 pages. Seriously, if we were all "over them" his comments would go unanswered, but we are not, so they don't.

    I love the rivalry. Love it. I think it is great for the local sports scene. I think it adds to fun of living in Utah. I think if you are consumed by the ugly aspects of the rivalry, it is probably a reflection on yourself more-so than the rivalry.

    Also, I even tend to agree with tooblue about being little brother. After hitting my physical prime and starting to pass it, I am happy to consider Utah as younger and more attractive than BYU! Maybe youth is why Utah athletics are leaving BYU in the dust?
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  22. #1612
    Quote Originally Posted by wally View Post
    To cease rivalry play on the field will just instigate a cold war pissing contest. I also think tooblue is right that this thread is just evidence of the denial some are in over "moving beyond" the BYU rivalry. He comes over here and stirs the pot a little and the thread grows by 5 pages. Seriously, if we were all "over them" his comments would go unanswered, but we are not, so they don't.

    I love the rivalry. Love it. I think it is great for the local sports scene. I think it adds to fun of living in Utah. I think if you are consumed by the ugly aspects of the rivalry, it is probably a reflection on yourself more-so than the rivalry.
    I don't think I will ever "move beyond" BYU. My BYU hate has been written on my soul at this point.

    I can't say that I always love the rivalry. Sometimes I hate it. As far as sports fan life goes, rivalry brings many of the highest highs and the lowest lows.

  23. #1613
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    We have one year of playoff results under our belts. I have my stance, you have yours on how significant OOC is, whether it hurt Baylor, etc. However, the trend in college football appears to be scheduling up by getting that one P5 team on your non-conference schedule. Go to fbschedules.com and see what our fellow P5 schools are doing. There are some really appealing inter-sectional matchups. Ohio State has TCU on the docket for a home-and-home. Penn State is getting Pitt and Syracuse back on the schedule. USC is playing Alabama. Minnesota even has two Pac-12 schools on the docket in coming years (Oregon State and Colorado). Why can't Utah get Purdue or Iowa on the slate?
    The CFP has been a very good thing for scheduling. I'm with you; we need to get on board. I don't care which P5 team or conference, but I want them on the schedules.

  24. #1614
    Quote Originally Posted by wally View Post
    I agree with tooblue's general sentiment that for Utah fans to want the rivalry to disappear is lame, and disingenuous. The BYU-Utah rivalry is part of the identity of both schools at this point.

    To cease rivalry play on the field will just instigate a cold war pissing contest. I also think tooblue is right that this thread is just evidence of the denial some are in over "moving beyond" the BYU rivalry. He comes over here and stirs the pot a little and the thread grows by 5 pages. Seriously, if we were all "over them" his comments would go unanswered, but we are not, so they don't.

    I love the rivalry. Love it. I think it is great for the local sports scene. I think it adds to fun of living in Utah. I think if you are consumed by the ugly aspects of the rivalry, it is probably a reflection on yourself more-so than the rivalry.

    Also, I even tend to agree with tooblue about being little brother. After hitting my physical prime and starting to pass it, I am happy to consider Utah as younger and more attractive than BYU! Maybe youth is why Utah athletics are leaving BYU in the dust?
    Well it's the off season. If Utah was playing Oregon in football this week, this thread would be dead. He gave us something to discuss, so we're discussing it.

    I'm in this thread, and I'd be perfectly happy if Utah never played BYU again. In fact, I hope they never schedule them again.
    Last edited by utefan; 02-26-2015 at 12:38 PM.

  25. #1615
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    I love this idea as well, but I think you'd have to have some way to control home and away to keep that even and predictable. Sancho, figure out how that will work. Stat.
    Every 2 years, there is a random division of the 64 P5 teams into two groups of 32.

    Group 1 hosts someone from Group 2 in 2015, and Group 2 gets to host in 2016.

  26. #1616
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    We have one year of playoff results under our belts. I have my stance, you have yours on how significant OOC is, whether it hurt Baylor, etc. However, the trend in college football appears to be scheduling up by getting that one P5 team on your non-conference schedule. Go to fbschedules.com and see what our fellow P5 schools are doing. There are some really appealing inter-sectional matchups. Ohio State has TCU on the docket for a home-and-home. Penn State is getting Pitt and Syracuse back on the schedule. USC is playing Alabama. Minnesota even has two Pac-12 schools on the docket in coming years (Oregon State and Colorado). Why can't Utah get Purdue or Iowa on the slate?

    There's no point in debating the significance of the OOC. We've all made our stances clear on this. But Utah is a massive outlier when it comes to scheduling OOC. There might be five teams in P5 that don't have a fellow P5 school in their OOC after 2015. Now, maybe we truly are reinventing the wheel, and after 5-6 years of playoff committee talk and action, we'll see that our course of action is best as far as the playoff is concerned. Consensus today amongst P5s, however, strongly suggests we're doing it wrong. They're all scrambling to get a P5 on the schedule most of the time. Utah doesn't even have one after this year.
    But BYU isn't a P5, so none of that matters in regards to scheduling BYU.

    Schedule a school in a hot recruiting area if you're not going to schedule a P5. No need to schedule BYU.

    Also, I think I mentioned that the Pac 12 plays 9 conference games to the SEC's 8. If I didn't mention it, I meant to but forgot. So that means the SEC has to play a P5 out of conference just to equal the Pac 12's conference schedule.

  27. #1617
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post

    There's no point in debating the significance of the OOC. We've all made our stances clear on this. But Utah is a massive outlier when it comes to scheduling OOC. There might be five teams in P5 that don't have a fellow P5 school in their OOC after 2015. Now, maybe we truly are reinventing the wheel, and after 5-6 years of playoff committee talk and action, we'll see that our course of action is best as far as the playoff is concerned. Consensus today amongst P5s, however, strongly suggests we're doing it wrong. They're all scrambling to get a P5 on the schedule most of the time. Utah doesn't even have one after this year.
    I bet you I can find 5 in the SEC alone.

    Look at these 3 OOC Schedules from the SEC next year:

    Miss St – Southern Miss, Northwestern St., Troy, Louisiana Tech

    Ole Miss – UT Martin, Fresno St, New Mexico St., Memphis

    Vandy – W Kentucky, Austin Peay, Middle Tenn, Houston
    Last edited by Scorcho; 02-26-2015 at 01:05 PM.

  28. #1618
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Every 2 years, there is a random division of the 64 P5 teams into two groups of 32.

    Group 1 hosts someone from Group 2 in 2015, and Group 2 gets to host in 2016.
    "We're cutting to a live look-in at the Huntsman Center in Salt Lake City, where the famous Mighty Utah Student Section has gathered to watch the Schedule Selection Show....and Utah draws....Kentucky!" <shot of the MUSS going crazy>

  29. #1619
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't think I will ever "move beyond" BYU. My BYU hate has been written on my soul at this point.

    I can't say that I always love the rivalry. Sometimes I hate it. As far as sports fan life goes, rivalry brings many of the highest highs and the lowest lows.
    I think that we agree. The rivalry is fun on the winning end. My hypothesis is that folks that hate the rivalry, take it a tad more seriously than the average joe, whether they will admit it or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by utefan View Post
    Well it's the off season. If Utah was playing Oregon in football this week, this thread would be dead. He gave us something to discuss, so we're discussing it.

    I'm in this thread, and I'd be perfectly happy if Utah never played BYU again. In fact, I hope they never schedule them again.
    You are a man on an island my friend!

    As for whether there would be action in this thread during the week of the Oregon game, well, duh.

    What the action here in the off-season shows is that our collective subconscious returns to the rivalry when at rest. I wonder what that means?

    As lamented in this thread earlier regarding sports talk radio, the rivalry drives ratings. Why is that I wonder?

  30. #1620
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    I bet you I can find 5 in the SEC alone.
    Mississippi St is what I want us to do. They have guaranteed themselves being ranked every year just off of scheduling.

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