I Wish I Knew How to Quit You - The BYU Sports Thread

[Two Utes]

Guys like Popinga and their stupid correlation of BYU to the Kingdom of God (and unfortunately I truly believe that a large percentage of the fan base believes the same thing on some level or another) is enough for me to be quite happy to not compete against them on any field or court or wherever ever, ever again. I am a participating member of the LDS Church and have a degree from BYU and I just don't understand that type of thinking. Yet it is engrained in their culture. I was told by a friend of a current player that after one workout this past winter Bronco gathered the troops and started to tell them that if they all lived better off the field they would be blessed with the realization of their football goals. I happen to disagree with this type of thinking, but some people lap it up. I think it is a turn off to most people who are not LDS and many who are and is ultimately a detriment to the mission of the LDS Church. I have always believed that the mission of BYU is not to do missionary work in the traditional sense, but rather a place for rallying the already converted.

Although I have lived in Utah the majority of my life, the years that I spent living outside the State were refreshing because nobody gives a crap about the LDS Church one way or another and so it was never an issue in any part of my life other than my religious activity. In Utah it permeates the fabric of everything and becomes the focal point for so much chest thumping and finger pointing that it becomes almost nauseating.

Anyway, I am one person who will not miss playing them one bit the next two years. I will try to avoid the 365 days of constant comparison and whining by the media that we are not playing them. I accomplish this by not listening to the local media and not reading their coverage. I will listen to Bill and Hans on some days and will read stuff by Dirk Facer, but I read more by Jon Wilner than anyone else to get my PAC 12 coverage.

He's telling the truth and therein lies the problem. The BYU administration (and whoever they are reporting to) intends to connect BYU football to the Mission of the Church. Just because Bronco is blatantly doing this doesn't mean he is making any misrepresentations. That is BYU football. If it offends Mormons who support other schools, then, quite honestly they need to look at the reasons why it is offensive because it shouldn't be offensive to any active, true beleiving Mormon. Popinga's comments are ridiculous but truthful. If that makes anybody's butt hurt, then that person need to do some soul searching

[Devildog]

Here is a link to the conversation if anyone has the 17+ minutes to waste.

http://1280thezone.com/index.php/aud...mer_cougars_lb

To me it is just more of the same.

Perspective and points of view are gonna be different.

I will say that from my point of view, Poppinga asking Monson about his own standing in the LDS church came across to me as condescending. As if, Monson would "get it" if he were more righteous. Universal truths and all.

[UTEopia]

He's telling the truth and therein lies the problem. The BYU administration (and whoever they are reporting to) intends to connect BYU football to the Mission of the Church. Just because Bronco is blatantly doing this doesn't mean he is making any misrepresentations. That is BYU football. If it offends Mormons who support other schools, then, quite honestly they need to look at the reasons why it is offensive because it shouldn't be offensive to any active, true beleiving Mormon. Popinga's comments are ridiculous but truthful. If that makes anybody's butt hurt, then that person need to do some soul searching

Are you saying that anyone who claims to be an active Mormon who does not agree that BYU = The Kingdom of God is off base, because that is what your statement indicates to me and apparently that was what Poppinga was trying to get at by questioning Monson about his religious activity. If Monson was only an active Mormon he would understand.

You are probably correct about what they want the message to be. I guess my problem is that I disagree with the overt association not because it offends me but because I believe it is detrimental to the actual mission. If you go to the communities where BYU plays on a regular basis I bet you will find that next to the actual rival of that school, BYU is the most loathed opponent. How does that further the mission of the LDS Church? Now BYU fans love to say, well that is because we beat them all the time. While there may be some truth to that, my experience from living in San Diego is that they are the most loathed because the fan base is made up of a large percentage of people who are arrogant, self-righteous pricks who think they are better than anyone else.

[Two Utes]

Are you saying that anyone who claims to be an active Mormon who does not agree that BYU = The Kingdom of God is off base, because that is what your statement indicates to me and apparently that was what Poppinga was trying to get at by questioning Monson about his religious activity. If Monson was only an active Mormon he would understand.

You are probably correct about what they want the message to be. I guess my problem is that I disagree with the overt association not because it offends me but because I believe it is detrimental to the actual mission. If you go to the communities where BYU plays on a regular basis I bet you will find that next to the actual rival of that school, BYU is the most loathed opponent. How does that further the mission of the LDS Church? Now BYU fans love to say, well that is because we beat them all the time. While there may be some truth to that, my experience from living in San Diego is that they are the most loathed because the fan base is made up of a large percentage of people who are arrogant, self-righteous pricks who think they are better than anyone else.

My point is simple--the people who the BYU guys report to are telling Bronco to tie the two together and to set apart BYU football from the others. He's doing it. Popinga is simply telling it like it is. The leaders want this. Don't shoot the messengers (Popinga and Bronconi)

[Two Utes]

My point is simple--the people who the BYU guys report to are telling Bronco to tie the two together and to set apart BYU football apart from the others. He's doing it. Popinga is simply telling it like it is. The leaders want this. Don't shoot the messengers (Popinga and Bronconi)

And the last thing I'll say about this: I've heard 100 times the old saying "it's not the church it's the people in the church" In this instance, it's the church.

[Devildog]

If they were really serious about BYU football as a missionary tool... They should get the word out to their fans to stop all their douche-baggery. That's gotta be dickin' up the effort, ya know.

Are they going to bash people into conversion?

They talk a good game, but their actions say something else.

It's like a gay orgy over there, I guess it's cool for some folks... but I have no interest.

[FountainOfUte]

The BYU administration (and whoever they are reporting to) intends to connect BYU football to the Mission of the Church.

Problem is, there is a broad way to interpret that. I mean, was that charge any different during the LaVell era? And yet BYU football had a MUCH different feel back then. They just went out with their "Ah, shucks!" persona and played straight up football. Sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but it wasn't directly connected to "living right on and off the field" and all of that stuff that's sprouted up in the last decade. The missionary aspect of the football team was just putting those darn weird Mormons in a normal-as-apple-pie scenario -- the American football field -- and showing the world that Mormons put their cleats on one foot at a time, too. The "lesson," trite as this sounds is that "Hey, for being weird, Mormons are mostly normal!"

The hope, I always thought, was that BYU's actions would speak for themselves as to the values of the LDS church; THAT would be the message. It was about presenting one of the many normal sides of Mormonism. Now that's all been torn down with the Bronco brand of BYU football.

There's a faction of members in the church that wears "Mormon peculiarity" as a badge of honor and they love to see that reflected by BYU's football team. I would argue though that infusing that overt peculiarity into the football team is having the opposite effect toward the school's/team's mission. Let the gospel be weird. Let the football be normal.

I guess my problem is that I disagree with the overt association not because it offends me but because I believe it is detrimental to the actual mission.

Yes. This ^^^.

[Scorcho]

I think you can trace some of this “Zoobish” type behavior to some norms within the LDS Church. Growing up in the church I was taught that we were NEVER to question our leaders, whether it was our Bishop, EQ President or Young Men’s Leader whatever they said in the capacity of their leadership was unquestioning gospel. The reason given is that they were called of God, and are given personal revelation in accordance with their calling. I think that works well in most religious settings, but is scary dangerous outside of it.

It seems like Brady Poppinga (or as the kids like to call him ... B-POP), Roger Reid and others take this principle to an extreme. They transfer this principle to other areas in their lives that are closely related to religion. Whether it’s a professor at an LDS Religious Institution, a friendly LDS financial planner/advisor MLM type (with guaranteed 25% annual investment returns), or a head coach of the football team, they view a similar line of LDS Church Authority (when none exists). I think that is why people like B-POP or others are vehemently defending Bronco’s position on coaching decisions or jersey’s, he’s been conditioned to not question those in authority especially when it has any religious correlation.

[Viking]

There are lots of weird BYU fans. They roam predominantly on CB and a few on the old CUF but to some of us, this is just a great damn rivalry and I want to beat the shit out of the U...just because. No religion involved. Hell, most of you are Mormon.

Good luck, but I hope we destroy you.

Love,

Viking

[kccougar]

I come to this thread just to read Utah's posts.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It tickles me that this is still your #1 thread over here.

[Ma'ake]

I'm headed down to Tempe, but a quick diversion on the BYU dumpster fire status:

The dumpster fire rages on, it's melted the vinyl decorative fence around it, the 2x4s that keep it from rolling away are charcoal, and the dumpster is headed down the street toward Tom Holmoe's house.

- Evidently Brian Logan (their DB of a few years ago) is picking Middle Tennessee, 42-21

- According to "Monte", a local Utah radio guy, Tom Holmoe held a meeting with the players, and re-iterated his support for Bronco, to which some players expressed great disappointment and a desire to quit football.

- Tom Holmoe (who I don't really have anything against - I think he's a decent guy) is a SF Giants fan, it appears, and tweeted out about the World Series:

TH: "Last name Ever, first name Greatest - Madison Bumgarner!" (the Giants great pitcher)

Random Fan: "Hey Tom, maybe you should be working on your football team"

TH: "I see you're a Dodgers fan, so I understand your anger"

Fan: "I'm also a BYU football fan, so now you understand my anger even better!"

As Bill Cosby would advise, Tom... Tom... Tom... don't lean into the punches!

[Utah]

So, I dug through my spreadsheets and here is how Wilson and Hill stack up:

I skipped 2012, because TW only played vs P5 and TH only played against mid majors (MM).

TW vs P5 2013: 58%, 267 yards, 2 TD, 3 INT, 6 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs P5 2013: 46%, 210 yards, .71 TD, .85 INT, 5.5 yards/rush attempt, .85 TD/game

in 2013, vs P5 competition, Wilson was the better QB when Wilson was healthy.

TW vs MM 2013: 67%, 280 yards/gm, 2 TD, 0 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs MM 2013: 66%, 235 yards/gm, 2 TD, 1 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 0.8 TD/game

Again, TW was the better QB vs MM comp.

TW vs P5 2014: 60%, 173 yards, 1 TD, 0.5 INT, 1 yard/rush attempt, 0 TD/game
TH vs P5 2014: 51%, 215 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game

Would you definitely take Hill over Wilson? I'm not so sure. Kind of a toss up.

TW vs MM 2014: 64%, 201 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs MM 2014: 70%, 202 yards, 1.5 TD, 0.667 INT, 6 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game

Again, where is Hill "clearly" the better QB? Kind of a toss up.

Career averages:
TW vs P5: 60%, 171 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 1.42 yards/rush attempt, 0.315 TD/game
TH vs P5: 49%, 204 yards, 0.77 TD, 0.77 INT, 5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game

TW vs MM: 65%, 240 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 5.5 yards/rush attempt, 1 TD/game
TH vs MM: 66%, 213 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT, 5.5 yards/rush attempt, .77 TD/game

TW vs P5: 9-10
TH vs P5: 4-5

TW vs MM: 6-0
TH vs MM: 9-0

Utah's record years TW started: 5-7, 5-7, 9-4 (final ranking of 21)
BYU's record years TH started: 8-5, 8-5, 8-5

Now, who knows what BYU could have done last year if Hill had stayed healthy. That being said, who knows how Utah could have been in 2013 if Wilson had stayed healthy. We were 4-2 and had just beat #5 Stanford. So, the point is injuries happen.

Taysom Hill is a product of some highlight reels and subpar competition. Statistically, he is not heads and shoulders above Wilson. Like I said, I'm not sure I trade Hill for Wilson. They both have their ups and downs. Wilson is a better passer. Hill is a better runner. Don't get suckered into some highlights and stats padded by mid-majors. Neither one is a very good QB.

[Utah]

Why I think the Kalani experiment will blow up in BYU's face:

1 - Kalani has little to no experience around him. First time HC, first time OC/QB coach/college coach, first time DC.

2 - I don't like the way Ty is talking. Every interview I hear him in, it is "I hired" and "I chose to do" and "I have decided". That is too much power for an OC, especially when you consider his legacy at BYU, the stories being told about him in the NFL in BYU circles (namely that he developed every QB that had success the last 20 years), and his race.

3 - I don't like that Kalani is moving all of this talent from the offense to the defense. This bothers me the most. Kalani is setting himself up to fail. What happens if BYU goes 6-6 the next three years? What if three years from now, Kalani's HC record is 18-18 in the regular season? Is he a failure? Is he a success? Well, it all depends on the scores of the games. If Kalani is 18-18 and his average score is 17-16, then Kalani is a success and Ty is a failure. Then you fire Ty, and hire another OC (cheaper) and spend the rest of the money on real college coaches.

If the average score is 35-36 and Kalani is 18-18, well, then Kalani is the problem and it is time to fire Kalani and promote Ty to head coach, because obviously Ty knows what is going on and he will fix every problem BYU has.

If I'm Kalani, I move everyone to the defensive side of the ball. Your recruiting classes suck compared to your schedule. You have 6 P5 teams, If you were in the PAC-12, you'd have the 13th ranked class. You just don't have enough talent to spread it evenly throughout your program. You need to load up one side and create a brand, then branch out from there....just like Kyle did. Kyle put everyone on defense, and built from there. Now, Kyle has enough talent, that some of it can bleed from the defense over to the offense (for example, see Butler-Byrd moving back to the offense. With Allen performing so well last year, you can move B-B back to the offense).

His schedule is too tough, Ty is too beloved, he is taking too much away from his defense, and he doesn't have the talent needed to succeed.

Bronco was the best coach BYU has ever had. And they ran him out of town. What are the odds that Sitaki, with no experienced coaches around him, will be better?

Good news is, we know who our LB coach will be in 4 years when Scalley gets a HC job and Ena gets promoted to our DC. Maybe Scalley will replace Kalani down in Provo.

[Utah]

I went and looked back at BYU vs Oregon State's talent last year:

The last 3 years, OSU has recruited about 4 spots higher than BYU according to Rivals, Scout and 247.
Over the last 5 years, OSU has recruited about 10 spots higher than BYU according to Rivals, Scout and 247.

So, it's not like Kalani is leaving a team devoid of talent and taking over some juggernaut. His defense is about as stocked at OSU's.

I mentioned this on Utefans, but Bronco's last 5 years in the MWC, he played 24 P5 teams and won 50 games.

Boise's first five years in the MWC, they played 12 P5 teams and won 52 games.

Bronco is a completely underrated football coach. So is Anae. Don't believe me? Look at what happened the last time BYU had a phenom freshman QB and they brought on their former QB genius coach to be OC.

What am I saying? It wouldn't shock me if Kalani completely FELL on his face this fall. He has no experience around him in the OC and DC positions, his schedule is just as tough if not tougher than last year (at least the first 6 games, his schedule get DRAMATICALLY weaker after that), and he is moving talent from defense to the offense.

[Utah]

I was talking to my father in law about BYU's coaching staff. Here is an interesting tidbit:

Morgan Scalley has more experience coaching at the DI level than Cahoon, Mahe, Detmer, Gilford, Clark, Empey and Lamb COMBINED. If you add all the DI experience from 7 out of the 10 coaches...they have less DI experience than Scalley.

Scalley also has more experience coaching than Tuiaki. That means the only coaches with more DI experience is Sitaki and Kaufusi.

[tooblue]

Just thought I would share:

[U-Ute]

Dear Coach Rose,

Afterward, Allen met with Santa Ana and Elon coach Matt Matheny to apologize

That's how you do it.

Signed, Mike Krzyzewski

[U-Ute]

We can't have this thread buried on page 2.

Wasn't this the first sign of the second coming or something?

BYU to sell caffeinated soda on campus

In a side note: Firefox doesn't think 'caffeinated' is a real word.

[U-Ute]

I have to give credit where credit is due.

[U-Ute]

LOL

I am really loving this site.

https://thedailyfrick.com/kyle-whitt...ruiting-trail/

[Solon]

And the last thing I'll say about this: I've heard 100 times the old saying "it's not the church it's the people in the church" In this instance, it's the church.

I agree with this. It's another case of the byu and the church that runs it trying to strike a balance between competitiveness in the world, and standing apart as a spiritual institution. We see it elsewhere as the byu tries to be both a university (with all the humanistic secular baggage that brings) as well as a flagship for promoting LDS values.

To some extent, I believe the leadership has made its decision to be a stand-apart institution: emphasizing spiritual growth over W-L records, or the accolades of the Academy. In a way, this is commendable. On the other hand, the mission has not been clearly enough articulated from the top to help the fans, members, and academic community understand what the overall vision and mission are. As in so many other areas, the LDS church seems to be trying to take both forks in the road for as long as it possibly can, although it ultimately has chosen morals & merits over Wins - Losses & Academic Freedom.

A pretty sharp rabbi once said something about not being able to serve both God & Mammon, but I think his exact comments were correlated by a team of lawyers and PR officers.

[LA Ute]

To some extent, I believe the leadership has made its decision to be a stand-apart institution: emphasizing spiritual growth over W-L records, or the accolades of the Academy. In a way, this is commendable. On the other hand, the mission has not been clearly enough articulated from the top to help the fans, members, and academic community understand what the overall vision and mission are. As in so many other areas, the LDS church seems to be trying to take both forks in the road for as long as it possibly can, although it ultimately has chosen morals & merits over Wins - Losses & Academic Freedom.

I really don't think the Q12 and the FP place any importance on BYU winning championships. I do wonder why they haven't made that more clear. Comments like Jeff Holland's below make me think they are edging towards being more open about it. For example, here's Dieter Uchtdorf in General Conference, 2010:

Perhaps there is no better laboratory to observe the sin of pride than the world of sports. I have always loved participating in and attending sporting events. But I confess there are times when the lack of civility in sports is embarrassing. How is it that normally kind and compassionate human beings can be so intolerant and filled with hatred toward an opposing team and its fans?

I have watched sports fans vilify and demonize their rivals. They look for any flaw and magnify it. They justify their hatred with broad generalizations and apply them to everyone associated with the other team. When ill fortune afflicts their rival, they rejoice.

Something tells me he is not talking about Manchester United fans. Less than a year after that General Conference talk, he did show up at RES with Jamie Whittingham, after all. Coincidence? I think not!

*UchtdorfJamie2.jpg

[Solon]

I really don't think the Q12 and the FP place any importance on BYU winning championships. I do wonder why they haven't made that more clear. Comments like Jeff Holland's below make me think they are edging towards being more open about it.

I totally agree. It's just not that important in the big scheme of things.
As an educator, I would love to see more schools leaving behind the arms-race of college athletics. At the very least, I would like to see those dollars go to participation over competition. Millions of dollars are spent on a relatively tiny portion of the student-body. The justification arguments are dicey at best (they bring school pride, etc.). Most programs lose money, esp. at the non-BCS level.

It's refreshing to see a university de-emphasizing sports. On the other hand, they have a $50 billion HD truck. It's a mixed message at best.

*UchtdorfJamie2.jpg

Great photo.

[tooblue]

And the last thing I'll say about this: I've heard 100 times the old saying "it's not the church it's the people in the church" In this instance, it's the church.

This entire thread is embarassing. Utes and cougars are cut from the same cloth. The more you mock the zoobs of the BYU fan base the more you solidify your utter zootness. The more you try to tie Bronco's quirkiness to being a precondition of the LDS churches mandate for the football team at BYU the more your reveal your own irrational insecurities.

Both fan bases are naive and rediculous. The media in Utah only exacerbates the problem. Typically, at this time of year I tune in to Utah radio via the Web to feed a deeply ingrained football fetish I just can't quit. I can't do it this year due to the collective idiocy I tuned into last year. To hear them talk Utah was the new Alabama. At least those that covered BYU were realistic about their place in the football universe ... Well, kinda sorta.

Sorry Senioritis but getting giddy about what channel your team plays on is akin to zoots raving about being the kids who got invited to the junior prom but only because the socal schools needed a sucker to help pay for the limo. By the way I would've loved to watch Utah on tv last year, at least once ... I won't hold my breath waiting this season.

Two Utes, I love you like a brother cause well, we are brothers. But your comments above make you sound like a dip shit. Bronco is just wired that way.

Utah is the new Arizona. Brad Rock stole my line.

[USS Utah]

The more you mock the zoobs of the BYU fan base the more you solidify your utter zootness.

What does it mean if I completely ignore them, or say nice things about Bronco?

[LA Ute]

What does it mean if I completely ignore them, or say nice things about Bronco?

I think it means you have a healthy attitude. I personally think Bronco's just a guy trying his best to do a difficult job the way he's been asked to do it.

[Mormon Red Death]

This entire thread is embarassing. Utes and cougars are cut from the same cloth. The more you mock the zoobs of the BYU fan base the more you solidify your utter zootness. The more you try to tie Bronco's quirkiness to being a precondition of the LDS churches mandate for the football team at BYU the more your reveal your own irrational insecurities.

Both fan bases are naive and rediculous. The media in Utah only exacerbates the problem. Typically, at this time of year I tune in to Utah radio via the Web to feed a deeply ingrained football fetish I just can't quit. I can't do it this year due to the collective idiocy I tuned into last year. To hear them talk Utah was the new Alabama. At least those that covered BYU were realistic about their place in the football universe ... Well, kinda sorta.

Sorry Senioritis but getting giddy about what channel your team plays on is akin to zoots raving about being the kids who got invited to the junior prom but only because the socal schools needed a sucker to help pay for the limo. By the way I would've loved to watch Utah on tv last year, at least once ... I won't hold my breath waiting this season.

Two Utes, I love you like a brother cause well, we are brothers. But your comments above make you sound like a dip shit. Bronco is just wired that way.

Utah is the new Arizona. Brad Rock stole my line.

Well you are in Canada. I watched every game in hd last year from Michigan.

We are sorry you guys are not part of one of the bigger more important conferences. If you have to think we only got invited because they "needed help to pay the limo" to help you sleep thats fine.

Hey you guys would have been in the big 12 if it wasn't for the governor who hates Mormons. Heck you guys would be in right now if it wasn't That being independent was so much better.

There does that help?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[tooblue]

Well you are in Canada. I watched every game in hd last year from Michigan.

We are sorry you guys are not part of one of the bigger more important conferences. If you have to think we only got invited because they "needed help to pay the limo" to help you sleep thats fine.

Hey you guys would have been in the big 12 if it wasn't for the governor who hates Mormons. Heck you guys would be in right now if it wasn't That being independent was so much better.

There does that help?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

I guess I need to remind you that technically my "grey market" satellite dish is located at your house in Michigan. We watch Amercan programming in the tooblue home. What channel were the Ute games on again?

Wooooo HD Internet streaming is the bomb ... Well, not quite yet. Of course what has helping to pay for the limo gotten you? I never had to wonder where to find the BYU game last year. Hades, I could've seen every BYU game via Canadian programming last season!

I'm beginning to wonder if Utah really is the new Arizona. Maybe more like the new Washington State.

Lol ... Whatever helps you sleep at night bucko.

[jrj84105]

This entire thread is embarassing. Utes and cougars are cut from the same cloth.

Yes. Except you guys were cut with a broken, one-handled pair of safety scissors.