Southern Utah

[Diehard Ute]

Spent some time in Park City and saw some old friends in SLC. Park City is just fantastic in the summer.

I was really impressed with downtown SL, including the new development area.

As a business entity, the mormon church is exceptional. This leads me to believe that it will evolve dramatically over the next decade.

We attended a family member's wedding (well, we sat outside…Mormonism is the only major religion worldwide which excludes family and friends from weddings on the basis of religious affiliation!).

I felt bad for all of those good mormons…how do they reconcile fact with faith? I couldn't do it. I think one can believe in the "spirit" or intent of Mormonism but not the reality. Maybe that's good enough. But literalists are simply, well, unintelligent or ignorant (probably the latter…simply don't want to know out of fear of what they might find).

Goldman's growth is something to behold and its impact on SLC will be a driving force of moderation in the valley, I bet. GS's success will bring others and I would imagine that in ten year's time, you non-sober utahns won't have to deal with the utter ridiculousness of the liquor laws.

One funny moment was when my brothers and I were in a bar near our hotel and the bar said they couldn't pour more than 1.5 fluid ounces of a specific alcohol but could mix up to 2.4 fl oz with other alcohols.

We immediately all recognized how very clearly the laws were written by people who have no idea what they are talking about…mixing drinks is a great way to get a lot more f'd up than simply sticking with a single type during an evening. And I guess there's some form of limitation on serving food in a bar after a certain hour?? Perfect…let's get people mixed alcohols and not allow them to absorb them with food!

Ahhh….Utahhhh….

There's no limit on food, the limit is all bars have to close at 0200, only on duty employees can remain after 0200 (alcohol cannot be served after 0100)

(And for the record, eating has little to do with changing the absorption rate if alcohol, but allowing people to stay would allow their system to process it out. The average adult metabolizes alcohol at approximately .015 BAC per hour. (So someone at .08 will take about 5 hours to be back to 0.00)

Yes Utah's laws are silly when it comes to alcohol. And fighting it is a big uphill battle given the entity that believes nothing should change. (The biggest change that needs to be made is allowing beer over 4% to be sold on tap instead of just bottles and cans...there's no logical reason for this law)

[LA Ute]

There's no limit on food, the limit is all bars have to close at 0200, only on duty employees can remain after 0200 (alcohol cannot be served after 0100)

(And for the record, eating has little to do with changing the absorption rate if alcohol, but allowing people to stay would allow their system to process it out. The average adult metabolizes alcohol at approximately .015 BAC per hour. (So someone at .08 will take about 5 hours to be back to 0.00)

Yes Utah's laws are silly when it comes to alcohol. And fighting it is a big uphill battle given the entity that believes nothing should change. (The biggest change that needs to be made is allowing beer over 4% to be sold on tap instead of just bottles and cans...there's no logical reason for this law)

I am no student of Utah's liquor laws but they sure seem silly to me. Honestly, is there any articulated reason for them? Do the laws' defenders point to some empirical data supporting their position, for example, that in states with restrictive laws there are fewer alcohol-related traffic deaths? I am a babe in the woods on this topic. All I can say is that my family and I have lived in wicked Calfornia for 30+ years and have remained uncorrupted by the greater availability and general presence of alcoholic beverages.

[Applejack]

I am no student of Utah's gay marriage laws but they sure seem silly to me. Honestly, is there any articulated reason for them? Do the laws' defenders point to some empirical data supporting their position, for example, that in states with restrictive laws there is less crumbling of traditional marriage? I am a babe in the woods on this topic. All I can say is that my family and I have lived in wicked DC for 30+ years and have remained uncorrupted by the greater availability and general presence of gay marriage.

[sorry, la, if I hadn't, someone else, perhaps someone meaner, would have]

[LA Ute]

[sorry, la, if I hadn't, someone else, perhaps someone meaner, would have]

Don't think so. You are probably spending too much time on CougarStadium.

[Diehard Ute]

I am no student of Utah's liquor laws but they sure seem silly to me. Honestly, is there any articulated reason for them? Do the laws' defenders point to some empirical data supporting their position, for example, that in states with restrictive laws there are fewer alcohol-related traffic deaths? I am a babe in the woods on this topic. All I can say is that my family and I have lived in wicked Calfornia for 30+ years and have remained uncorrupted by the greater availability and general presence of alcoholic beverages.

They claim our restrictive laws are what provide our low DUI rates and low underage drinking rates, but they can't back it up when pressed. But they don't have to.

The Zion Curtain. No evidence it does anything.

Heavy beer not on tap. No evidence (in fact, they force me to buy a 22oz bottle instead of a 16oz glass go figure)

It's driven by personal moral beliefs, and a lot of naivety and lack of understanding.

Best example, the Zion Curtain fight is supposedly to stop restaurants from looking like bars (don't ask, no one gets it) and thus keeping kids from drinking. But all the data shows kids drink at home or other kids homes, they don't go to a bar or restaurant to try alcohol.

I hold out hope that someday the silly things like heavy beer restrictions, the Zion curtain, population quotas etc will vanish. But that will likely require Utah's senate to become more representative of Utah, something it isn't now (the House has passed changes, the senate kills them)

[Diehard Ute]

But Utah does have lower DUI, underage drinking, and alcohol mortality rates? So something good is going on, right? Causality is impossible to show, but why isn't this a "not broke, don't fix" thing? When something is working, isn't the burden of proof on those who would make the changes?

I feel like the law whininess is largely driven by businesses who feel like they could make a lot more money if they could advertise differently.

And that's driven by a population that consumes less.

Do you honestly believe a wall which hides someone pouring a beer has any effect whatsoever on DUI or underage drinking?

Does the vessel in which a beer is served from cause DUI's or underage drinking?

Does requiring someone to prove intent to dine stop DUI or underage drinking?

I fail to understand your argument about advertising. You already can advertise alcohol, that's not even something anyone argues about. And the state is the biggest profiteer from alcohol sales as they require roughly an 80% markup, plus the "sin" tax.

If things like DUI are really the concern, why not actually strengthen the laws on DUI? Utah likes to tout tough DUI laws, but in reality it is a class B misdemeanor which is one of the most difficult cases to win in court.

Perhaps your post is an example of the problem, many who make the laws also don't understand what truly has an actual effect on the issues of DUI etc.

[Diehard Ute]

If a lack of clocks in a casino can have an subtle effect on gambling, or a shade of color in a grocery store can have a subtle effect on spending, then a wall in front of a bar can have subtle effect on drinking. Why not?

The wall is about advertising. Restaurants hate the wall because without it, patrons see the bar, think about the bar, and then approach the bar. I don't see it as a huge step towards safer streets, but I don't see a problem with it.



I think the answer to both is a definite perhaps. I don't really know.

The wall isn't about advertising. The drinks are published in a menu. The expressed reason for the wall, per the Utah state legislature, is to shield children (and those who find drinking to be a sin) from having to see a drink being mixed as that will stop temptation. It's the same, flawed, logic behind Utah's sex education theories. If we don't talk about it, it won't happen.

If you're truly naive enough to think a draft beer will cause more DUI or underage drinking than a bottle of beer, this discussion is pointless. As I have already mentioned, I can go to a restaurant and order a 22 ounce bottle of beer, which I have to drink there. But I cannot order that same beer on tap in a 16 ounce glass. That makes no sense.

The laws which need to be changed in Utah are things like these, laws that have no proven effect on the stated goals.

Laws such as requiring clubs to kick everyone out at 2 am are also silly. Have a last call, but don't force people to physically leave, let them hang out and drink water or soda and have some food for a couple hours. That will reduce the chance of someone driving drunk. As it stands now we're encouraging people to try and drive by forcing them out.

If you want some irony, check out the legislation that was proposed to change the age to buy tobacco to 21. It was shot down by the Utah legislature as government impinging on the ability of an adult to buy a legal product. Strange.

[Solon]

Navajo Lake on top of Cedar Mountain is really full this year - if I were a fisherman I'm sure I would enjoy it even more.

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[LA Ute]

Navajo Lake on top of Cedar Mountain is really full this year - if I were a fisherman I'm sure I would enjoy it even more.

IMG_2229.jpg

One of the more unknown spots in Utah, I'll wager. On a drive back to L.A. some years ago I had some extra time and so I drove up there to look around. Looked like good fishing.